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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 09:47am
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#1) A1's try is in flight which the Trail official signals as a 3-pt try as the signal sounds indicating time has expired in the 4th qtr. Ball enters basket tying the score. Coach of team B confers with the officials that A1's try was a 2-pt try. Officials rule the coachis incorrect. Team B ahs used all of its 60-sec TO's but has one 30-sec TO remaining. Officials charge team B with an excessive TO and assess a technical foul. Is the official correct? The key says yes, but I thought that you could use whatever TO you had left. And I can't find the rule citation for it. To make things worse, we don't use 30's in MA, so I never have to deal with this in real life. Anybody help me out?

#2) A1 receives a pass while straddling the division line. A1 then fumbles the ball which touches the floor int he frontcourt. A1, instead of catching the ball, begins a dribble of the fumble and dribbles back into the backcourt. Official rules this a legal play. Is the official correct? I think this one is right off of Tony's backcourt quiz, but I can't remember if the touch to start the dribble makes the violation, or if you pass on the violation b/c it's now a dribble and all 3 points aren't across yet. Tony?
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 10:06am
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A) 5.11.3 ...Only one 60 second time out is charged (or one 30-second time out, if that is the only type remaining) in 5-8-4 regardless of the amount of time consumed when no correction is made. The answer key appears to be incorrect.

B) If it's a fumble, as opposed to starting a dribble (by a player in control pushing or batting the ball to the floor once or several times)(4.15.1), I would think it's a backcourt violation.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 11:39am
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#2...violation. It left the hand as a fumble.
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
#2...violation. It left the hand as a fumble.
Does that matter?

If the ball touches the hand after it has fc stus before the player has given up his bc status...

Let's try this again. If the player fumbles the ball as opposed to beginning a dribble, and the ball touches in the fc, even though the player still has a foot in the bc...

I mean, I would think that if he was straddling the line when he caught the pass, he'd have to lift his bc foot before he touched the ball after the fumble...


Wow, this is incredibly difficult to express. I've tried like a zillion times and it keeps coming out weird.

Okay, A2 is straddling the division line. A1, in bc, passes the ball to A2. A2 tries to catch the ball. A2 clearly fumbles the ball into the front court. At this point, A2 has bc status, ball has fc status. A2 must lift his bc foot before touching the ball again. I agree with you on that.

But suppose A2 clearly catches the ball. Now, he begins a dribble with the first bounce in the fc. That's still a violation if he touches the ball with his bc foot still on the floor, right? Even though the ball didn't leave the hand as a fumble, but as a dribble? So it doesn't matter how it left the hand, if it touches the fc first, and A2 is still touching in bc, it's a violation, right?
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Old Thu Aug 25, 2005, 02:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
#2...violation. It left the hand as a fumble.
Does that matter?

If the ball touches the hand after it has fc stus before the player has given up his bc status...

Let's try this again. If the player fumbles the ball as opposed to beginning a dribble, and the ball touches in the fc, even though the player still has a foot in the bc...

I mean, I would think that if he was straddling the line when he caught the pass, he'd have to lift his bc foot before he touched the ball after the fumble...


Wow, this is incredibly difficult to express. I've tried like a zillion times and it keeps coming out weird.

Okay, A2 is straddling the division line. A1, in bc, passes the ball to A2. A2 tries to catch the ball. A2 clearly fumbles the ball into the front court. At this point, A2 has bc status, ball has fc status. A2 must lift his bc foot before touching the ball again. I agree with you on that.

But suppose A2 clearly catches the ball. Now, he begins a dribble with the first bounce in the fc. That's still a violation if he touches the ball with his bc foot still on the floor, right? Even though the ball didn't leave the hand as a fumble, but as a dribble? So it doesn't matter how it left the hand, if it touches the fc first, and A2 is still touching in bc, it's a violation, right?
Yes. It matters how the ball leaves the player's hand.

The dribble begins when the ball is released. During a dribble, the ball might not gain FC status when it bounces. Both feet must touch in the frontcourt before the ball achieves FC status during a dribble that starts from the backcourt. Since the player is straddling the line, the player and the ball retain BC status and can fully retreat into the backcourt.

If released as a fumble, the ball has FC status the moment it bounces.

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Old Fri Aug 26, 2005, 11:56am
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FIBA rules
1. This one is, I've never used 30 sec time-outs either so I dunno, I have no clue really. However the score's tied and the coach is called a time out right? (forced TO), this should mean that a TO for the last half is charged, if there isn't one a C-technical will be called and 2 FT's for team A.

2. Violation, if I get this right I'm 100%, I might have misunderstood the description but I'm certain it's backcourt violation
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Old Sun Aug 28, 2005, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
#1) A1's try is in flight which the Trail official signals as a 3-pt try as the signal sounds indicating time has expired in the 4th qtr. Ball enters basket tying the score. Coach of team B confers with the officials that A1's try was a 2-pt try. Officials rule the coachis incorrect. Team B ahs used all of its 60-sec TO's but has one 30-sec TO remaining. Officials charge team B with an excessive TO and assess a technical foul. Is the official correct?
The key says yes, but I thought that you could use whatever TO you had left. And I can't find the rule citation for it. To make things worse, we don't use 30's in MA, so I never have to deal with this in real life. Anybody help me out?
My understanding was that you "use" the 30.

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
#2) A1 receives a pass while straddling the division line. A1 then fumbles the ball which touches the floor in the frontcourt. A1, instead of catching the ball, begins a dribble off the fumble and dribbles back into the backcourt. Official rules this a legal play. Is the official correct?
I think this one is right off of Tony's backcourt quiz, but I can't remember if the touch to start the dribble makes the violation, or if you pass on the violation b/c it's now a dribble and all 3 points aren't across yet. Tony?
So A1:

  • is straddling the DL, holding the ball

  • current ball status: BC, because A1 is touching the BC

  • fumbles the ball

  • current ball status: remains BC, because the ball has not been in player control in the FC

  • starts a dribble right off the fumble

  • current ball status: the "3-points" (two feet, ball) come into play. Nowhere did it say that the foot in the BC left the BC. If A1 lifts that foot, then FC is established. Therefore, we're still in the BC.

    No violation.
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      #8 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Aug 28, 2005, 03:41pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee
  • fumbles the ball

  • current ball status: remains BC, because the ball has not been in player control in the FC

    "Player control in the front court" is NOT one of the criteria. TEAM control, and the ball in the front court, are.

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    Old Sun Aug 28, 2005, 06:02pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by JugglingReferee
    current ball status: the "3-points" (two feet, ball) come into play. Nowhere did it say that the foot in the BC left the BC. If A1 lifts that foot, then FC is established. Therefore, we're still in the BC.
    If the "3-points" are in play (that is, we have a player dribbling in the BC and moving towards the FC), then both feet and the ball need to touch the FC for FC status to be established. So we don't get FC status when a dribbling player straddling the line to simply lifts the BC foot.

    As bob jenkins said, though, in this case, the ball has FC status as soon as it touches the FC, since the player is not yet dribbling. As soon as the player (who is still in the BC) touches the ball again, we have a violation.
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      #10 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Aug 28, 2005, 10:55pm
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    #1... Since it is the end of a period, can't the coach ask without being charged? I thought this rule only applied to the coach wanting to stop play during a live ball or some time during a quarter? It really doesn't make any sense to charge it when they would be going to their huddle anyway would it?
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    Old Tue Aug 30, 2005, 06:18am
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    #1 There was a change in the 2003-04 Rules book, which permitted using the 30. Prior to that they had to be charged a 60 if they were incorrect. So the key used to be correct, but isn't anymore.

    #2 I agree with Camron. It's a violation, since the ball was fumbled. FC status is gained when it bounces in the FC. The first touch constitutes a change to BC status and thus a violation.
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    Old Thu Sep 01, 2005, 05:25pm
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    Are you guys slow or what?

    Quote:
    Originally posted by refTN
    #1... Since it is the end of a period, can't the coach ask without being charged? I thought this rule only applied to the coach wanting to stop play during a live ball or some time during a quarter? It really doesn't make any sense to charge it when they would be going to their huddle anyway would it?
    Above is the correct answer - isn't it? The quarter is over. The game is tied. The coach now has another time out (for the overtime period). But why would you even charge a timeout - the clock is stopped for the intermission between the 4th quarter and the overtime. Charge a technical foul! Holy cow! Have the referees got a date after the game or what? I suppose because they charged a time out and a Technical they will also consider the points scored on the T as part of the 4th so they won't have to work the overtime.
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    Old Thu Sep 01, 2005, 07:45pm
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    Re: Are you guys slow or what?

    Quote:
    Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
    Quote:
    Originally posted by refTN
    #1... Since it is the end of a period, can't the coach ask without being charged? I thought this rule only applied to the coach wanting to stop play during a live ball or some time during a quarter? It really doesn't make any sense to charge it when they would be going to their huddle anyway would it?
    Above is the correct answer - isn't it? The quarter is over. The game is tied. The coach now has another time out (for the overtime period). But why would you even charge a timeout - the clock is stopped for the intermission between the 4th quarter and the overtime. Charge a technical foul! Holy cow! Have the referees got a date after the game or what? I suppose because they charged a time out and a Technical they will also consider the points scored on the T as part of the 4th so they won't have to work the overtime.
    Tony, it's the rulez! The only time that a coach is allowed to go to the scoring table is if he wants to request a TO for a correctible error. Period! If he's there for any other reason, it's supposed to be an automatic "T". See rule 10-5-1(b). And if the coach does go to the table about a correctible error, you have to charge him with a TO if the error wasn't correctible. Rule 5-11EXCEPTION2.

    Also check out case book play 10.5SitD:
    "The coach of team A leaves the bench area and goes to the table to seek information other than a correctible error: (a)during a time-out; or(b) during the intermission between the first and second quarters.
    RULING: A technical foul is charged directly to the coach in both (a) and (b). If this information is required, it must be secured by a manager or statistician,etc, when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. A coach is not permitted at the table for this purpose. To allow exceptions would open the door for exploitation and would result in situations which could not be enforced consistently"
    .

    Note that the time between the end of the fourth quarter and an OT period is also an "intermission" also, as per rule 5-7-1.

    [Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 1st, 2005 at 09:07 PM]
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    Old Thu Sep 01, 2005, 10:03pm
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    My bad.

    Violation.
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      #15 (permalink)  
    Old Mon Sep 05, 2005, 09:37am
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Nevadaref

    #2 I agree with Camron. It's a violation, since the ball was fumbled. FC status is gained when it bounces in the FC. The first touch constitutes a change to BC status and thus a violation.
    FED 2000-2001 Interps.

    Situation 1: A1 is straddling the line after catching and possessing a pass from A2. A1 then funmbles the ball, so that the ball lands in A's frontcourt. A1 then regains possession of the ball (still straddling the division line). Ruling: Violation (ote: I summarized the ruling, and this IS NOT the play being discussed in this thread.)

    Situation 2: (Note: This IS the play being discussed in this thread) Same situation as above, except A1 begins a dribble immediately upon fumbling the ball and retreats to his / her backcourt to avoid a defender. Ruling: During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt. Therefore, the play is legal and play continues.

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