respect your partner

[crack-it]

I was in a 3 man crew and had just given out a T for the home team coach. I forgot to inform him of the seat belt rule and he remained standing up, vocal, and animated. once i realized i hadn't informed him i asked my partner, the "R" for that game to explain the seat belt rule as i didn't want to make things worse by walking over to him. I watched as my partner went and talked to him. A few minutes elapsed and the coach was back up and again animated. At the next break in action I told my partner that i couldn't believe that i was going to have to toss him. That's when my partner told me that he didn't give the seat belt speech but instead told the coach that he would allow him to stand and coach his team but he wasn't to get out of hand...

My partner has been calling longer. How would you handle? Comments?

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by crack-it
I was in a 3 man crew and had just given out a T for the home team coach. I forgot to inform him of the seat belt rule and he remained standing up, vocal, and animated. once i realized i hadn't informed him i asked my partner, the "R" for that game to explain the seat belt rule as i didn't want to make things worse by walking over to him. I watched as my partner went and talked to him. A few minutes elapsed and the coach was back up and again animated. At the next break in action I told my partner that i couldn't believe that i was going to have to toss him. That's when my partner told me that he didn't give the seat belt speech but instead told the coach that he would allow him to stand and coach his team but he wasn't to get out of hand...

My partner has been calling longer. How would you handle? Comments?

Back when you gave the T, it wasn't your responsibility to tell the coach to sit and stay. I'd tell R that's the rule and not really there for us to discern. What does he plan to do when the visiting coach wants to know why the home coach is back up? IMO, your R is asking for trouble and we'd have a serious talk in the locker room. Maybe he can teach you something valuable about not applying the rule (said with sarcasm).

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

Back when you gave the T, it wasn't your responsibility to tell the coach to sit and stay. I'd tell R that's the rule and not really there for us to discern. What does he plan to do when the visiting coach wants to know why the home coach is back up? IMO, your R is asking for trouble and we'd have a serious talk in the locker room. Maybe he can teach you something valuable about not applying the rule (said with sarcasm).

Agreed, Chris is right here, not your job to inform, T him up, report and go opposite. Let the new offfical coming table side take care of it and any other issues at the table.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by crack-it
I was in a 3 man crew and had just given out a T for the home team coach. I forgot to inform him of the seat belt rule and he remained standing up, vocal, and animated. once i realized i hadn't informed him i asked my partner, the "R" for that game to explain the seat belt rule as i didn't want to make things worse by walking over to him. I watched as my partner went and talked to him. A few minutes elapsed and the coach was back up and again animated. At the next break in action I told my partner that i couldn't believe that i was going to have to toss him. That's when my partner told me that he didn't give the seat belt speech but instead told the coach that he would allow him to stand and coach his team but he wasn't to get out of hand...

My partner has been calling longer. How would you handle? Comments?

That's a tough one. That's why it's a good idea to get together with one of your partners and get the logistics of a T straightened out before administering. But then your partner made things worse by not doing the job even after your reminded him of the seatbelt duties. I would have a heart-to-heart about that one after the game.

On a similar note, I once gave a much-deserved T to a coach and then got together with my partner (2-person game) and asked him to do the seatbelting. He did that and then let the coach talk to him for about 2 minutes while me and all the players waited. After the game I said, "just seat belt the coach and get away. You can have a discussion with him later in the game. Do you know that it looks like you are selling out your partner when a T is given and then you listen to the coach tell you why it was all my fault for 2 minutes?" My partner agreed and apologized.

Z

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by zebraman

That's a tough one. That's why it's a good idea to get together with one of your partners and get the logistics of a T straightened out before administering. But then your partner made things worse by not doing the job even after your reminded him of the seatbelt duties. I would have a heart-to-heart about that one after the game.

On a similar note, I once gave a much-deserved T to a coach and then got together with my partner (2-person game) and asked him to do the seatbelting. He did that and then let the coach talk to him for about 2 minutes while me and all the players waited. After the game I said, "just seat belt the coach and get away. You can have a discussion with him later in the game. Do you know that it looks like you are selling out your partner when a T is given and then you listen to the coach tell you why it was all my fault for 2 minutes?" My partner agreed and apologized.

Z

Good point. I've seen that happen before and the whole time you are presuming you know what they're talking about and wondering why your partner is still listening and talking. You begin questioning the T. At every camp this summer, somewhere along the weekend a conversation came up about how they watch what an official does for about 3 minutes after a T. Does he lose his composure or is he still "in the game"? Partner support is crucial here, even if he doesn't completly agree with your call.

[ditttoo]

Sounds like a perfect situation for a "pre game" review.

Discuss with your partners the exact situation you just described. Determine beforehand how you will handle such situations rather than have to wonder what the heck is going on after the fact.

Might also want to help your partner understand the "team" approach to officiating for the next time you work together.

[TxsDesiree]

Great advice

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by crack-it
My partner has been calling longer. How would you handle? Comments

How I would handle it might be different than how you should handle it.

How many years have you been officiating?
What is your partner's experience level?
What level ball was this?

Iow...is this really a battle an inexperienced official wants to get into with an experienced official?

Yeah, the coach should have been seatbelted after the first T...but, IMO, the coach should have been reminded of this immediately after you gave him the T...or the first time you saw him standing after the T.
For whatever reason, the more experienced official let the coach have some slack...(I'm not saying this is right, but the fact remains that he did).
Learn from it...remember next time to advise the coach of the proper procedures...then YOU can enforce the rule as written.

Z and others here had some good comments on officials working together...being a team. Pregame this stuff, and talk about situations after the game. (Come to this forum to ask questions, as you did.)...but, IMO, you don't want to get into any big confrontation with a more experienced official over this...especially on the floor during the game. Again, just my opinion.

[Nevadaref]

"Coach, I'm sorry that my partner misinformed you. That is not the correct rule. Unfortunately, he's cost you your second T and now you need to leave."

[ditttoo]

The key is to "work together" as a Team. Once you've "T'd" him up, stay away. Certianly you don't want to allow anyone to completely make a mockery of either you or the game, but the situation described is one where you've done what you needed to do, gave the T, discussed it with your Partner (who made the decision to ignore the seat belt) and now it's up to your partner to give the second T. This is where you have to trust your Partner (and they you) and their judgement as to when or if the second T is warranted.

I had a very similar situation in a playoff game seveeral years back - intense game, intense crowd, etc. I T'd the coach who needed and wanted one. My Partner then took over and took the coaches gruff, etc. for the rest of the game, BUT it was well communicated by my Partner that the coach was (and did) stay off my case for the rest of the night. Definitely a situation where I gained a great deal of respect for my Partner and a solid appreciation for "working together as a team" with my co-official. I was very thankful that we had pre-gamed such a situation and once it began to unfold, we were prepared.

If there is a lonelier situation than being a referee who just T'd a coach, then it's being a referee at odds with the coach AND their Partner. Trust your Partner, and their discretion, to issue the second T - always best if BOTH of you see the coach as deserving versus a "one-on-one" battle.

Now IF your Partner doesn't have your back and lets the coach run crazy, then it's a LONG ride together back home.

[rockyroad]

If you made a "pyramid" of the important things we need to protect as officials, the bottom (biggest and most important) layer would be protecting the integrity of the game...the middle layer would be protecting the integrity of the participants...the top (smallest) layer would be protecting the integrity of the crew...if that coach needed a second T to protect the integrity of the game, send him packing, and then worry about the crew later.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
If you made a "pyramid" of the important things we need to protect as officials, the bottom (biggest and most important) layer would be protecting the integrity of the game...the middle layer would be protecting the integrity of the participants...the top (smallest) layer would be protecting the integrity of the crew...if that coach needed a second T to protect the integrity of the game, send him packing, and then worry about the crew later.

Excellent advice.

[walter]

Absolutely agree the second "T" should have been given even if you gave the first one. The coach lost the privilege of the box when he earned the first "T". He loses the privilege of sticking around when he earns the second "T" by not adhering to the seatbelt rule. I agree that the official's changing room may not be the most pleasant place to be afterwards but you can't let your partner make the whole crew look bad, especially you. When your partner allowed the coach to remain standing, he basically undermined any credibility you had. Therefore, if he won't take care of business, you need to.

[w_sohl]

It would now be on your partner when you issued the 2nd T. The coach would say that your partner told him he could stand and you would have to tell him that that was impossible as that is not the rule and you are sure your partner knows the rules. Sorry, hit the showers, now your partner takes the heat for hangin' you out to dry.