Flagrant or Not

[crazy voyager]

I agree, it's a good call, but I*m still going to comment- cause in my book it says that, an unsportsmanlike (probably what you call flagrant, if not-please correct me) foul must involve a contact (exception, player touching a ref= a technical) a technical does not, I would however throw him out, either a double technical (it's happened) or a disqualifing foul (game punishment, no report sent in)- but I think you did the right thing, especially scince I don't think you follow the same rules I do when you're calling games (and I'm following the "swedish playyrules for basketball 2004"-that's the latest edition we have here).

[LepTalBldgs]

This was something I experienced my second year of summer ball. I was initially taken aback (for about a second), then gave him a flagrant T and showed him the bench.

The pre-report meeting with the other official is a good suggestion and something I will now pregame for.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by samj
a player turned to me pointed to me and said "your f#@*$ing rotten".

NCAA rulebook (I imagine NFHS is similar) describes non-contact flagrant T's as involving "extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive conduct".

This is the textbook definition of that.

Great call. Chuck his sorry a** - hopefully other punishment was handed out by the camp organizers.

[JosephG678]

See rule 4-19-4

"A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical NONCONTACT foul which displays unacceptable conduct...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or NONCONTACT at any time which is extreme or persistant, vulgar or abusive conduct."

So I guess the #$%^& language applies!

Joe

[Edited by JosephG678 on Aug 18th, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JosephG678
See rule 4-19-4

"A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical NONCONTACT foul which displays unacceptable conduct...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or NONCONTACT at any time which is extreme or persistant, vulgar or abusive conduct."

So I guess the #$%^& language applies!

Joe

How about:

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 10 . . . Be charged with fighting.

and

RULE 4, SECTION 18 FIGHTING
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live
. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.


Fighting is about the attempt to cause harm to the other person. It doesn't matter if they make contact or not.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Love this Game
You know to be honest, you did it exactly correct. He would have gotten a T real quick for the finger point

I know it is a different sport, but the finger point needs to be dealt with. Football: I'm the crew chief for a semi-final a few weeks ago. I follow behind the play and see a guy get knocked to the ground. It was because an opponent losing his balance. This is not a penalty in football. A player pointed right at my line judge and asked him what the h3LL he was looking at. My flag came out even before he finished the sentence: it was for the finger point. Such an easy call. Then he points to me and tells me he can't wait to see me after the game. That was an easy ejection, plus another 10 yards.

I guess point is the finger point. Players: don't do that.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I guess point is the finger point. Players: don't do that.

Good point; point bad.

Sorry.

[refnrev]

samj,
Obviously this was a good call on your part. But I do have one question: How in the world did you do two years without giving a T?

[truerookie]

Originally posted by refnrev
samj,
Obviously this was a good call on your part. But I do have one question: How in the world did you do two years without giving a T?

Refnrev, i was thinking the same thing. I have been officiating for two yrs myself and i have handed out several T's (I am not boasting about them) they were warranted. I actually had a coach per se beg for one and when he received it he said "thank you." I realized than situations require a little "Technical loving."

[samj]

I guess I just have the right demeanor. I am definitely not quick to react. I have never had an athlete even come close to deserving a technical. It is also important to point out that I officiate in a very rural area. When a coach is getting close I simply go over to him/her and put up the hand (stop sign) and say coach, I have heard enough. This has always worked for me. I have worked with other officials that have called technicals on coaches, but probably less than five times. I think it is important to point out that I am not in a hurry to move up the ranks. All of the games I have officiated are at the JV level, so I believe the coaches are a little more passive. Another point is that my father in law is an excellent official and has has two state final games in Pennsylvania and rarely calls a technical. I try to emulate his demeanor on the court of showing respect to coaches and players, but at the same time letting them know who is in charge. He has told me that if the coach has a legitimate question to at least acknowledge them and try to explain if possible. He then mentioned that if you give them the stop sign and it continues to bang them.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by samj
I guess I just have the right demeanor. I am definitely not quick to react. I have never had an athlete even come close to deserving a technical. It is also important to point out that I officiate in a very rural area. When a coach is getting close I simply go over to him/her and put up the hand (stop sign) and say coach, I have heard enough. This has always worked for me. I have worked with other officials that have called technicals on coaches, but probably less than five times. I think it is important to point out that I am not in a hurry to move up the ranks. All of the games I have officiated are at the JV level, so I believe the coaches are a little more passive. Another point is that my father in law is an excellent official and has has two state final games in Pennsylvania and rarely calls a technical. I try to emulate his demeanor on the court of showing respect to coaches and players, but at the same time letting them know who is in charge. He has told me that if the coach has a legitimate question to at least acknowledge them and try to explain if possible. He then mentioned that if you give them the stop sign and it continues to bang them.

Right demeanor or not, coaches are still coaches. Yes, I fully agree that our reactions and demeanor can help keep coaches calm and in the game. We can help them thru situations.

IMO, the JV coaches can be tougher than V coaches. They've had some successes and want to continue moving up to the V level so they push the limits more often. Also, many summer league coaches and rec coaches all perpetrait their favorite NBA or D1 coach and think they're almost there and YOU stand in their way.

My tolerence in the off season is way way shorter than in regular season games. Samj, now that you've broke your cherry, I bet they come a little quicker from here on.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
many summer league coaches and rec coaches all perpetrait their favorite NBA or D1 coach

Mouth. . .dry. . .head. . .spinning. . .light. . .fading. . .perpe. . .per. . .can't. . .breathe. . .

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Mouth. . .dry. . .head. . .spinning. . .light. . .fading. . .perpe. . .per. . .can't. . .breathe. . .

Maybe he meant participate? Or was it propagate?

Chuck? Are you there?

Chuck?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Maybe he meant participate? Or was it propagate?

Whoa.....you can go blind doing that.

I quit when I needed glasses.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Whoa.....you can go blind doing that.

I quit when I needed glasses.

Tsk, tsk.

I never figured you to be one to quit early.