Flagrant or Not

samj

I am a fairly new official and after officiating for 2 years had to call my first T. It was at a team camp and after making a call, a player turned to me pointed to me and said "your f#@*$ing rotten". I called a flagrant foul and tossed him for the remainder of the game. I have heard a few different evaluations of my call. Some say due to the nature of the language that it was flagrant. Others have told me that even though it was bad, it was only a technical foul and he would have to have another T to get tossed. The third interpretation was that it was only one technical foul, but you could sit him down for the rest of the game. What is the proper procedure for this scenario. Does it have to be physical to be flagrant? I thought after two years and over 60 games that I would be ready for my first T, but I must admit I did get a little fired up. Just to add to it, my partner had to toss the coach of the player just 5 minutes before and the team was losing by about 20 points. It really didn't get much better either. Any help would be appreciated.

deecee

perfectly fine -- unless this is the NBA he's gone -- he made it personal by what he said and that in my opinion is a tossable offense.

JugglingReferee

Flagrant all the way.

Without a doubt, no question.

tmp44

I'm confused by the third interp., unless the evaluator (or whoever told you this) was meaning that it's a flag. T, which is only one technical plus an ejection (he "sits the rest of the game" part?).

It doesn't have to be physical to be flagrant; non-physical contact can have the same result. You just have to decide whether you think it's deserving; IMO, this is 50-50, but I probably would have only T'd, not tossed.

ChrisSportsFan

He's done and depending on the team camp, he might be done with the camp.

bigwhistle

Originally posted by tmp44
I'm confused by the third interp., unless the evaluator (or whoever told you this) was meaning that it's a flag. T, which is only one technical plus an ejection (he "sits the rest of the game" part?).

It doesn't have to be physical to be flagrant; non-physical contact can have the same result. You just have to decide whether you think it's deserving; IMO, this is 50-50, but I probably would have only T'd, not tossed.

You gonna let a kid look at you and call you a Moth#$f$%#$ and just give him a T? There are certain things that an adult should not allow a kid to do or say. Tolerence of this is what has led our sportsmanship in this country to be what it is. Please don't bring in the "but it is the way these kids are raised" or "that is just a figure of speech to them" argument.

Sometimes you have to punish someone in order to get their attention enough in order for them to even consider changing their way of doing things and trying to become better people, which is, btw, one of the purposes of interscholastic athletics.

BktBallRef

Originally posted by tmp44
It doesn't have to be physical to be flagrant; non-physical contact can have the same result. You just have to decide whether you think it's deserving; IMO, this is 50-50, but I probably would have only T'd, not tossed.

tmp44, you're a stupid @#$%%$@ if you don't think that's flagrant. 🙂

Sam, yes, he's gotta go. And in my state, he would be suspended for two more games if this was a high school game.

Mark Dexter

Originally posted by samj
a player turned to me pointed to me and said "your f#@*$ing rotten".

"And you're f***ing done for the night, buddy."

WhistlesAndStripes

Send that mother****er to the shower.

tjones1

I have no problem with your call. I would of handled it the exact same way.

Love this Game

You know to be honest, you did it exactly correct. He would have gotten a T real quick for the finger point, and then another one for the WORD's so any way it would have went he would have been gone.

I can not believe that someone told you that it was not a F.T.

What is this game coming too!!!!!

That is why i am abt to give it up!!!

Quick Short and In A Hurry!!

Back In The Saddle

For my money, you nailed it. Think of it as the basketball equivalent of sending him to time out. 🙂 I am frankly astonished that anybody would have a problem with this call -- it made itself. Plus it's a summer game and they're losing by 20, so it's not like your call had any impact on the outcome of the game (I am not suggesting you pass on this in a close game). Hopefully he learned his lesson today and won't cost him team when it really counts.

You're right about getting fired up. It happens, even to vets. I pre-game with my partners that when one of us has a T, we meet before reporting. It gives us a chance to let our heart rate settle a bit and to discuss the penalty and what we're going to tell the coach before we report it. Screwing up and shooting at the wrong basket or saying the wrong thing to the coach just makes a difficult situation worse 😉

tjones1

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
You're right about getting fired up. It happens, even to vets. I pre-game with my partners that when one of us has a T, we meet before reporting. It gives us a chance to let our heart rate settle a bit and to discuss the penalty and what we're going to tell the coach before we report it. Screwing up and shooting at the wrong basket or saying the wrong thing to the coach just makes a difficult situation worse 😉

BITS,

Interesting idea...something that I might start to do.

johnny1784

Originally posted by tjones1

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
You're right about getting fired up. It happens, even to vets. I pre-game with my partners that when one of us has a T, we meet before reporting. It gives us a chance to let our heart rate settle a bit and to discuss the penalty and what we're going to tell the coach before we report it. Screwing up and shooting at the wrong basket or saying the wrong thing to the coach just makes a difficult situation worse 😉

BITS,

Interesting idea...something that I might start to do.

Me too!

Let us not confuse vet's with experience and professionalism.

Snake~eyes

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Flagrant all the way.

Without a doubt, no question.

No brainer, good call.

crazy voyager

I agree, it's a good call, but I*m still going to comment- cause in my book it says that, an unsportsmanlike (probably what you call flagrant, if not-please correct me) foul must involve a contact (exception, player touching a ref= a technical) a technical does not, I would however throw him out, either a double technical (it's happened) or a disqualifing foul (game punishment, no report sent in)- but I think you did the right thing, especially scince I don't think you follow the same rules I do when you're calling games (and I'm following the "swedish playyrules for basketball 2004"-that's the latest edition we have here).

LepTalBldgs

This was something I experienced my second year of summer ball. I was initially taken aback (for about a second), then gave him a flagrant T and showed him the bench.

The pre-report meeting with the other official is a good suggestion and something I will now pregame for.

canuckrefguy

Originally posted by samj
a player turned to me pointed to me and said "your f#@*$ing rotten".

NCAA rulebook (I imagine NFHS is similar) describes non-contact flagrant T's as involving "extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive conduct".

This is the textbook definition of that.

Great call. Chuck his sorry a** - hopefully other punishment was handed out by the camp organizers.

JosephG678

See rule 4-19-4

"A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical NONCONTACT foul which displays unacceptable conduct...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or NONCONTACT at any time which is extreme or persistant, vulgar or abusive conduct."

So I guess the #$%^& language applies!

Joe

[Edited by JosephG678 on Aug 18th, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

Camron Rust

Originally posted by JosephG678
See rule 4-19-4

"A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical NONCONTACT foul which displays unacceptable conduct...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or NONCONTACT at any time which is extreme or persistant, vulgar or abusive conduct."

So I guess the #$%^& language applies!

Joe

How about:

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 10 . . . Be charged with fighting.

and

RULE 4, SECTION 18 FIGHTING
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live
. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Fighting is about the attempt to cause harm to the other person. It doesn't matter if they make contact or not.