The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #91 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 04:16am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
...everyone has said they'd give the ball back to A. We only differ in the reasoning we'd apply to support our decision.
A significant minority (namely Jurassic and me!) have said that while we may not like the rule, we're going to give the ball to B, because that's the way we're supposed to do it. We have to enforce all the rules, even the ones we don't like.
Uh, no, Jewel.
Both of you did not say that.
mick
Okay, I give. What did we say?
JR is giving the ball back to A, you are all by your lonesome on this one.
Here's a direct quote from JR

"My position is legitimate(in my mind).....but wrong by rule.

You're right, Juulie; imo the only options by rule are a foul on B1 or a B throw-in. "

Also, I think Camron's on my side, too.

So, that makes three of us, not just one.

Frankly, I can't believe y'all are seriously giving the ball to A. If A is the last one to touch the ball, what else needs to be said? The book clearly states that the definition of "causes the ball to be oob" is "the last to touch." How could you possibly go against that? Since when to we deliberately and with malice aforethought contravene clear legal language to suit our own ideas of "common sense"? Seriously, I don't get it.

If B shoves the ball out of bounds, and A reaches for it, and just barely tips it, then it was really B that caused the ball to go out, even though A was the last to touch. How is that any different from the play under discussion?
This is JR's ruling Juulie:

PS- Personally, I'm in favor of giving the ball back to A for a throw-in. I think that this was the original purpose and intent of the rules. B shouldn't benefit or gain an advantage after initiating the physical contact in this case imo.

Like I said, you are alone in giving the ball to B. JR is using the spirit and intent of the rule, Cameron said he's never seen B just hit hand, so he's giving it to A, too.


Yup, that's what JR said and meant--way back.
Reply With Quote
  #92 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 10:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Okay, well I've misinterpreted JR then. Wow.

I don't mind being the only one who's correct when everyone else is two coaches, 15 players, and a gym full of fans. However, when everyone else is a discussion board full of experienced, authortative, and mostly intelligent referees, I gotta stop and take stock. Hmmm.....

Give me a day to think about this. I gotta figure out what's next for this ol' girl.
Reply With Quote
  #93 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 20, 2005, 11:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, well I've misinterpreted JR then. Wow.

I don't mind being the only one who's correct when everyone else is two coaches, 15 players, and a gym full of fans. However, when everyone else is a discussion board full of experienced, authortative, and mostly intelligent referees, I gotta stop and take stock. Hmmm.....

Give me a day to think about this. I gotta figure out what's next for this ol' girl.
I e-mailed our state interpreter and here are his exact words:


Ball out of bounds to Team A. When B1 hit the hand below the wrist, it is the same as hitting the ball, as the hand is part of the ball, thus B1 caused the ball to go out-of-bounds. An official would be in "hot water" if they ruled the opposite and my advise is never make a call you cannot explain.


So I guess I was wrong. Sheez, I feel like a dork. It explains a lot of yelling and complaining that I never understand. And it's one more thing to put on the list of poorly written rules.
Reply With Quote
  #94 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 09:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
So I guess I was wrong. Sheez, I feel like a dork.
Hey, don't feel too bad; some of us have that feeling on a regular basis.

I'm guessing some people might comment on your interpreter's statement on "the hand being part of the ball", but his reasoning is still in line with most people here. Whether you split the hair on the hand being part of the ball (which it really isn't; it just applies to whether a foul can be called), or you "see" that B touched some part of the ball as well as the hand, most of us agree it makes "game sense" to give it back to A.

As far as all the yelling you hear - it doesn't go away just because you're right.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #95 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 09:19am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
As far as all the yelling you hear - it doesn't go away just because you're right.
Good call, M&M Guy.
Reply With Quote
  #96 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 11:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
As far as all the yelling you hear - it doesn't go away just because you're right.
A little of it might!
Reply With Quote
  #97 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 01:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
As far as all the yelling you hear - it doesn't go away just because you're right.
A little of it might!
Hope springs eternal
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #98 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 06:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,801
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker

Ball out of bounds to Team A. When B1 hit the hand below the wrist, it is the same as hitting the ball, as the hand is part of the ball, thus B1 caused the ball to go out-of-bounds. An official would be in "hot water" if they ruled the opposite and my advise is never make a call you cannot explain.
I agree with the interpretation but sheesh - a state interpreter saying "the hand is part of the ball" with NO qualification whatsoever?
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
Reply With Quote
  #99 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 08:40pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker

Ball out of bounds to Team A. When B1 hit the hand below the wrist, it is the same as hitting the ball, as the hand is part of the ball, thus B1 caused the ball to go out-of-bounds. An official would be in "hot water" if they ruled the opposite and my advise is never make a call you cannot explain.
I agree with the interpretation but sheesh - a state interpreter saying "the hand is part of the ball" with NO qualification whatsoever?
The world is run by a C-minus average.
Reply With Quote
  #100 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 21, 2005, 10:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,910
I'm going to start by admitting I haven't read all 7 pages of this thread but... I look at this situation as a place to use advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player is not protecting the ball and leaving it out where the defensive player can get to it, I'm not going to bail the offensive player out and call a foul if the defender gets some skin on the pick. That being said, if the slap is loud and everyone hears it, you better call it or you will be in for a long night. As far as A hitting B's hand and knocking the ball out of bounds, I say give it to B as long as it's not so obvious that it will get you in trouble. I have no rules book quotations behind this, just some common sense developed from my games and having others watch me work.
Reply With Quote
  #101 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 22, 2005, 12:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by Junker
I'm going to start by admitting I haven't read all 7 pages of this thread but... I look at this situation as a place to use advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player is not protecting the ball and leaving it out where the defensive player can get to it, I'm not going to bail the offensive player out and call a foul if the defender gets some skin on the pick. That being said, if the slap is loud and everyone hears it, you better call it or you will be in for a long night. As far as A hitting B's hand and knocking the ball out of bounds, I say give it to B as long as it's not so obvious that it will get you in trouble. I have no rules book quotations behind this, just some common sense developed from my games and having others watch me work.
The rules say hitting the hand that is on the ball while playing the ball is not a foul. Strike one Junker.

Refereeing by sound will get you in trouble. Strike two.

Most officials in this thread have agreed that common sense means giving the ball back to A on a contact and the ball going directly OOB. Strike three.

Sorry Junker, but you're out.
Reply With Quote
  #102 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 22, 2005, 12:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,263
Quote:
Originally posted by Junker
I'm going to start by admitting I haven't read all 7 pages of this thread but... I look at this situation as a place to use advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player is not protecting the ball and leaving it out where the defensive player can get to it, I'm not going to bail the offensive player out and call a foul if the defender gets some skin on the pick. That being said, if the slap is loud and everyone hears it, you better call it or you will be in for a long night.
There is absolutely no justification for calling a foul just because it is loud and everyone hears it. I've actually had a broken finger from such a play (finger was bent 90 degrees in a way that it wasn't intended...ouch) and it was most certainly NOT a foul.

By calling this a foul, you make it harder for the rest of the officials that have the guts to call it right.

Don't make a call because it is what the crowd/coach expects when it is the wrong call.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #103 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 22, 2005, 12:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

Most officials in this thread have agreed that common sense means giving the ball back to A on a contact and the ball going directly OOB. Strike three.
He switched up A and B on us. He's actually agreeing with us, just doing it backwards. Foul tip; he's still battling.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #104 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 22, 2005, 04:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

Most officials in this thread have agreed that common sense means giving the ball back to A on a contact and the ball going directly OOB. Strike three.
He switched up A and B on us. He's actually agreeing with us, just doing it backwards. Foul tip; he's still battling.
Nope, still strike three since A is always the offensive player, switching them means he's out.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:04am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1