The Larry Brown quote

[zebraman]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"There's a simple statistic. We're 1-7 with one referee, and we're 11-1 with the rest." — LARRY BROWN

According to the Detroit Free the stats are actually:

In 2005 Playoffs

Ron Garretson 0-4
Dan Crawford 1-3
Games without either of those two: 12-1

I'm throwing this out there for a couple reasons that I'm curious about.

1) As Officials, how can this be explained?

Stupid, stupid statistic. If you researched every NBA, college or high school ref, you'd find good teams that have losing records when certain officials have done their games. Part of life is random. Now go away fanboy.

Z

[LoudBottom]

Wow...

[dblref]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
Wow...

You seem surprised. Exactly what reaction did you expect from an official's forum?

[tomegun]

The NBA refs officiate a game and then break down the entire game in the locker room. They have to pay for making rule mistakes and each call is graded. The two officials mentioned make a lot of money. Probably over $200k. I have also heard that they make $75k if they make it to the finals. That sure is a lot of money to risk when you know you are going to be caught on film and everything you do will receive a grade. Not to mention how long it took both of them to make it where they are now. Not to mention this is their full-time gig.
It makes perfect sense to risk all of that so you can stick it to Larry Brown and the Pistons. NOT!

I've been in a situation when it seems like a team never wins when I have their game. Part of it had to do with the coach being an idiot and me being dumb enough to make the appropriate call because of this. Well, I stuck to my guns and did the right thing every time I had his team no matter what. This isn't any different from what I do for any game since it would be much more difficult to lean one way or the other. My last year at State in Nevada before I moved he wanted me on the finals game. He knew he was getting the same official at home, on the road or in the state finals.

[lukealex]

Originally posted by LoudBottom


2) Pistons fault. Mocking Conspiracy theory.

Yes I really believe there is a consirpacy among NBA refs. Boy these guys sure are the best, they can keep screwing certain teams for 20+ years in a row.

If you want to bash the refs, go to a fan's forum. If you haven't noticed by reading the rest of the threads on this site, the general population here (which is over 95%) are refs. The rest are coaches who want a better understanding of the rules.

But a fan with a grudge appears every now and then, it sure is fun to tell that fan how it is.

[ChrisSportsFan]

They have so many cameras and plenty of people grading their calls who know what they're doing to go out and make a bad call on purpose. It would show up big time on the film and I just don't see anyone getting away with it. They call 'em like the see 'em.

There's sooooo many stats kept that you could manipulate them to say just about anything. These coaches know what play teams run out of the first time out of every Thursday night game, so you know they have stats on everything.

[Mark Dexter]

Larry Brown has his stats, but the NBA league office has thousands more.

Every call by every official against every player and team is recorded and catalogued. If any hint of a bias were to appear, you better believe the league would take care of it in an instant.

[drothamel]

The most basic flaw in Larry Brown's reasoning, and by extension, the reasoning of the right honorable LoudBottom, is that it takes into account only one statistical category and tries to pin a win or a loss on it. There are tons of other statistics, most of which are much more influential, that could be used. How about, just for arguments sake, the shooting percentage of the Pistons in those games? Shooting percentage has nothing to do with the officials, and I would venture a guess that it is probably lower in the games that they lost.

Heck, if your going to just pull out one statistic, you could look at what their record is when Larry Brown wears a red tie as opposed to a blue one. I mean, it is absurd to take any one statistical category, no matter what it is, and try to draw a direct relationship between it and wins and losses. Well, that isn't totally true, becuase the number of points scored in relation to your opponent does have a direct relationship to wins and losses.

[Mark Dexter]

Almost forgot:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[drothamel]

I don't know, Mark, it may be more of a non-sequitur.

If this board starts going Latin on me, I'm through.

[LoudBottom]

Well, where to start...

I'll first say the arrogance is amazing. Not just in this thread, but in many others as well. There are some amazing sources of knowledge here and lots of cool information... but man, there are some truly self-righteous individuals here. I understand the knowledge and confidence you must emit to be a respected and effective referee. I do not diminish and understand that many must put on the uniform and the game face that comes with it. Many of us need to do the same things in our real lives. I made a gamble coming here hoping that the Power Aura was something that officials can turn off and on once you leave the court or film room. Fishing through these threads for knowledge has left me blown away. The way some people get off in here discussing T's and their point of views on rule judgements is downright mindblowing. I wish I had seen many of these people before they starting officiating. I'm dying to know if this is something that they turned into... or is this something that they gravitated naturally towards because of the power. Some of these people just seem downright mean. I digress...

Let me address some stuff thrown at me.

Jurassic Referee: "News Flash:...officials are human...They will make mistakes" then you say "NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player."

Okay, which is it? Humans are not perfect, yes? I totally agree... they make mistakes, totally honest mistakes. But to say that these people are above emotion, stress, and personal feelings? Every single one???? They never ever breakdown and slip up? After going through these boards and seeing the individuals who are totally emotional with respects to T's and coach-player-fan interactions... that's a real tough reality to try and swallow.

"Pistons fans think the officials are horrible and biased when their team loses"

Please try and generalize a little more. There are many of us who have lived the better parts of our lives on as court as well... If your saying that everyone who isn't a ref really has no clue what's going on... that's not true at all. There are many of us who love the game so much and to insinuate that all of us out here have no insight or objectivity is really disrepectful. For every Bill Walton, Doug Collins, or Steven A Smith out there spewing crap there are a thousand of us who know better.

Dewey1: "Psychology 101 - Correlation DOES NOT equal causation."

Understood and agreed. Also though "If it looks like a rat, and it sounds like a rat, it's either Krzyzewski or a rat"

Truerookie: :"let me get this straight you have gone through life and handle all situations as if they are going to turn out like to expect them"

Nope not at all... I'm human, I make mistakes every day. I have emotions and have instincts that I act upon. I never said NBA officials were perfect. I just meant that of all the responses nothing ever mentioned that a ref could ever be at fault. Seeing that humans and billions of dollars are involved... seems only logical to be curious.

DBLREF: "You seem surprised. Exactly what reaction did you expect from an official's forum?"

Well, like I said earlier. I was hoping that officials were people too. People that once they take off the uniform were nice engaging sorts that might actually be able to discuss public fallacies with a non-ref. I should have read through a load of threads first... I'm sure I would have picked up on the vibe earlier and not wasted everyone's time.

Zebraref: "Now go away fanboy."

Done and Done

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
Well, where to start...

I'll first say the arrogance is amazing. Not just in this thread, but in many others as well. There are some amazing sources of knowledge here and lots of cool information... but man, there are some truly self-righteous individuals here. I understand the knowledge and confidence you must emit to be a respected and effective referee. I do not diminish and understand that many must put on the uniform and the game face that comes with it. Many of us need to do the same things in our real lives. I made a gamble coming here hoping that the Power Aura was something that officials can turn off and on once you leave the court or film room. Fishing through these threads for knowledge has left me blown away. The way some people get off in here discussing T's and their point of views on rule judgements is downright mindblowing. I wish I had seen many of these people before they starting officiating. I'm dying to know if this is something that they turned into... or is this something that they gravitated naturally towards because of the power. Some of these people just seem downright mean. I digress...

Let me address some stuff thrown at me.

Jurassic Referee: "News Flash:...officials are human...They will make mistakes" then you say "NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player."

Okay, which is it? Humans are not perfect, yes? I totally agree... they make mistakes, totally honest mistakes. But to say that these people are above emotion, stress, and personal feelings? Every single one???? They never ever breakdown and slip up? After going through these boards and seeing the individuals who are totally emotional with respects to T's and coach-player-fan interactions... that's a real tough reality to try and swallow.

Of course it is hard for you to swallow. You are not an official. You have no idea what it takes to be an official. You have no idea what our job is. Our job is not to root for a team. Our job is to do a job and do that to the best of our ability. If the guys at the NBA do not their job, they do not have a job. No different from coaches and players at that level. They also make much less money. They do not have a guaranteed 20 million dollar contract. In some cases they do not make more than 5 figures. If you think they want to lose their job because of what a fan, coach or player thinks (when every game is taped and evaluated) you really think. If players and coaches do not want to get T'd up, then they need to shut up. If you speed on a road, the police have the right to give you a ticket for your driving. If you do not want to get ticketed for speeding, you do not speed.

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"Pistons fans think the officials are horrible and biased when their team loses"

Please try and generalize a little more. There are many of us who have lived the better parts of our lives on as court as well... If your saying that everyone who isn't a ref really has no clue what's going on... that's not true at all. There are many of us who love the game so much and to insinuate that all of us out here have no insight or objectivity is really disrepectful. For every Bill Walton, Doug Collins, or Steven A Smith out there spewing crap there are a thousand of us who know better.

Please, what part of the game do you understand? You probably think "over the back" is a foul. You probably think "moving screen" is illegal. You probably have most of your rules knowledge based on what Walton, Collins and even Steven A. Smith says. I hate to break it to you, but so did I before I became an official. Then when I actually read the rulebook and the casebook and the many interpretations, I found out I did not know what I thought I did.

Originally posted by LoudBottom
DBLREF: "You seem surprised. Exactly what reaction did you expect from an official's forum?"

Well, like I said earlier. I was hoping that officials were people too. People that once they take off the uniform were nice engaging sorts that might actually be able to discuss public fallacies with a non-ref. I should have read through a load of threads first... I'm sure I would have picked up on the vibe earlier and not wasted everyone's time.

You are not as bright as I thought you were. For one thing, any person that is into something "does not just take off their uniform." I can tell you a teacher does not stop think of education because they are not in the classroom. Or a doctor throws away all his training and expertise because they are out of the hospital. People who officiate are not any different. See I do not watch the NBA or any sport with the same eyes anymore. I watch the game as an official. I look at the game as an official. I watch their mechanics, signals and calls for understanding what took place. But you are not an official, so you have no idea.

Originally posted by LoudBottom
Zebraref: "Now go away fanboy."

Done and Done

Actually I think that is the best advice you have received. You should learn how to listen.

Peace

[TigerBball]

Ok, I have to throw this in here for fun. What about Olympic refs in 1972, conspiracy?????

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TigerBball
Ok, I have to throw this in here for fun. What about Olympic refs in 1972, conspiracy?????

Yup, and they musta had the same conspiracy in 2004.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and they musta had the same conspiracy in 2004.

News Headline: In 100% of Olympic basketball series studied, officials were biased against Americans.