The Larry Brown quote

[LoudBottom]

"There's a simple statistic. We're 1-7 with one referee, and we're 11-1 with the rest." — LARRY BROWN

According to the Detroit Free the stats are actually:

In 2005 Playoffs

Ron Garretson 0-4
Dan Crawford 1-3
Games without either of those two: 12-1

I'm throwing this out there for a couple reasons that I'm curious about.

1) As Officials, how can this be explained?

2) I am uneducated when it comes to who determines who refs, and where. Are there occasions where certain officials are held back from ref'ing teams that they've had "issues" with.

3) Are there accessible sites that has more information like this? Or is everything behind closed doors?

Respectfully

Loudbottom.

[mick]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"There's a simple statistic. We're 1-7 with one referee, and we're 11-1 with the rest." — LARRY BROWN

According to the Detroit Free the stats are actually:

In 2005 Playoffs

Ron Garretson 0-4
Dan Crawford 1-3
Games without either of those two: 12-1

I'm throwing this out there for a couple reasons that I'm curious about.

1) As Officials, how can this be explained?

Hmmm.
I'm guessing that for some reason, when Crawford and Garretson are officiating, the Pistons don't play as well.
Dunno.
mick

[lukealex]

Maybe van Gundy was right and there is a conspiracy......


or not

[truerookie]

It's all mental. It is like calling a game with a coach you know is going to be a butthead. So, you tell yourself it's going to be a bad night and usually it turns out to be that way. Mental approach.

[LoudBottom]

"It's all mental."

So, you're placing this all on the players and in essence are telling me that officials are beyond reproach. Interesting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"It's all mental."

So, you're placing this all on the players and in essence are telling me that officials are beyond reproach. Interesting.

Care to point out whereinthehell anybody said something that even faintly resembles your conclusion?

You aren't an official, are you?

[mick]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"It's all mental."

So, you're placing this all on the players and in essence are telling me that officials are beyond reproach. Interesting.

LoudBottom,
Truerookie is just a rookie, take it easy on him.

Actually, players often adjust [or not] to how the game is being called.

My Pistons are not adjusting very well.
I assume your Pistons are not adjusting well, but you are looking to excuse their lethargy.

mick

[LoudBottom]

It's not meant to be offensive JR.

So far, 3 responses.

1) Pistons fault. They must not play well.
2) Pistons fault. Mocking Conspiracy theory.
3) Pistons fault. "It's all mental"

Nobody mentions the other side.

FWIW, I officiated softball for several years on a peon local scale. Nothing grand. Both me and my wife played college ball. I've watched 20+ mysterious years of Hightower, Rucker, and Valentine... and am just curious on the goings on behind the curtain. I really am not trying to be an ***.

LB

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by LoudBottom

Nobody mentions the other side.

Do you honestly think that anyone here would actually mention the "other" side"? There is NO damn other side. Did you really expect the committed, dedicated officials that post here to tell you that NBA officials- who are probably as good a group of professional officials that you will find- would deliberately set out to screw a particular team? News Flash:...officials are human. They will make mistakes. NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player. If there was ever even a hint of one doing so, they would be off a series in a flash.

Losing teams have been blaming the officials for years- in all sports. It's easier than admitting that the other team might be a l'il better or that you just didn't play very well. Why should the Pistons be any different? Pistons fans think the officials are horrible and biased when their team loses; SA fans think the officials did a great job in the exact same game. Just reverse those sentiments when the Pistons win and SA loses. That's why we NEVER take fans seriously.They care who wins. We don't.

[26 Year Gap]

Maybe Larry ought to wonder about the 12-1 record.

[Dribble]

The funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated to represent just about any truth.

When I play poker sometimes I lose with a terrific hand. Same goes with basketball: sometimes you simply lose by external factors that you can't influence. These correlations can NEVER be assumed to be a cause-and-effect relationship.

Just because you lose when two particular refs are working doesn't mean that it's the refs' fault. I'd like to see last year's stats (and from the past 2-3 years) and see if Dan Crawford and Ron Garretson happen to factor into each of the Pistons' losses then, too. I'm guessing it won't be a factor at all.

I think Larry Brown was searching for an excuse for his team's terrible play and happened to stumble upon this convenient statistic that he could toss out to the media.

[Dewey1]

Psychology 101 - Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Simple. There is no basis to make the jump from who refs to your teams outcome. Maybe there is something else to this but simply saying when Mr. X refs my team don't win in not enough.

Example, Driver A has received 4 speeding tickets this year. Each time he was given a ticket it was raining. Does that mean the rain is reason he is getting speeding tickets? Of course not. Same with this quote you use. It is to simple and broad to have any real teeth to it.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
"It's all mental."

So, you're placing this all on the players and in essence are telling me that officials are beyond reproach. Interesting.

So Loudbottom, let me get this straight you have gone through life and handle all situations as if they are going to turn out like to expect them. I find that fascinating. Your approach to any situation whether you are playing a game or officiating one is a mental approach this is the point I was trying to make when I stated it was all mental when a team takes the court knowing who will be the officials.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Care to point out whereinthehell anybody said something that even faintly resembles your conclusion?

You aren't an official, are you?

I have learned alot from these threads. The one of those things are people will see what they want to see, say what they want to say, and interpret what they want to interpret just look at the surface. Anything, we do is 90% mental and 10% physical. Sorry, it is MENTAL. Good to know everyone is perfect in this forum in everything they do. GOT IT!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by LoudBottom
1) As Officials, how can this be explained?

Garrettson worked Game 1 of the Finals. The Pistons were on the road, they played lousy and they lost.

Crawford worked Game 2 of the Finals. The Pistons were on the road, they played lousy and they lost.

2) I am uneducated when it comes to who determines who refs, and where. Are there occasions where certain officials are held back from ref'ing teams that they've had "issues" with.

Who is "they?" Are officials that a team has an issue with held back? No. As for the officials, if an official had an "issue" with a team, he wouldn't be working in the NBA long.

As I recall Larry Brown was out of the coaching box, screaming at Danny Crawford when he got his T. Rick Hamilton thought he got fouled, replays showed that he didn't, and turned and screamed at Crawford. Got news for you partner, I would have busted both of them in the a$$ too. Am I a diehard Carolina fan but I would have still stuck Brown.

Joey Crawford T'ed up Tim Duncan for the exact same thing last night and the Spurs lost. Does that mean that Joey Crawford has it in for the Spurs? How about Joey and Danny wasn't going to listen to the bull$hit and simply did what the rules required, those teams played lousy and lost?

3) Are there accessible sites that has more information like this? Or is everything behind closed doors.

I'm sure there is. There's a site that has the University of Kentucky's basketball record for ever offiical who's worked a UK game in the past 40-50 years. So yes, conspiracy thoerists are united, so I'm sure you can find something if that's what you want.

Closed doors? When you were umpiring, were there closed door meetings where you guys discussed who you didn't like and who you decided would lose? I bet not. Well, doesn't happen in HS, the NCAA, or the NBA either.

There is no conspiracy. There are no issues. But believe what you want.