time out rule clarification

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

In a typcial case, it takes a player ~2 seconds to get OOB and get turned around for the throwin. Are you seriously telling me you only give them 3 seconds left from the time they could make a legal throwin to release the throwin? Sounds like a recipie for a T.

Furthermore, the casebook's only reference to "at the disposal" is for when the ball is bouncing around when no player has picked it up. The comment also mentions that the official should give teh team a moment or two in this case.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 5th, 2005 at 06:32 AM]

2 seconds to go 4 feet and turn around?

You must count like a jack-rabbit.

Seriously, under normal play they take the ball from the net or off the bounce and are already heading toward the boundary.

It takes a split second to register disposal and to start the count. By this time they are usually OOB and at most I'm at the open end of my one count,i.e. half way, when they get there.

By your interpretation you could have as much as 7 or 8 seconds come off the clock from the time they get control until you'd have a violation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by blindzebra

2 seconds to go 4 feet and turn around?

You must count like a jack-rabbit.

Seriously, under normal play they take the ball from the net or off the bounce and are already heading toward the boundary.

It takes a split second to register disposal and to start the count. By this time they are usually OOB and at most I'm at the open end of my one count,i.e. half way, when they get there.

By your interpretation you could have as much as 7 or 8 seconds come off the clock from the time they get control until you'd have a violation.

If they're hustling...I agree, less than a second...the gap between grabbing the ball and getting OOB will be very small. If they not hustling, it can easily be over a second...perhaps 2 or more.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

If they're hustling...I agree, less than a second...the gap between grabbing the ball and getting OOB will be very small. If they not hustling, it can easily be over a second...perhaps 2 or more.

So why reward them for not hustling?

Why take game time from the other team?

If it is obvious confusion causing a delay to make the throw in, I am more likely to wait for the light to come on to judge disposal.

But they get no break for not hustling, and I believe that falls under delaying and by rule the count should start.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by blindzebra

So why reward them for not hustling?

Why take game time from the other team?

If it is obvious confusion causing a delay to make the throw in, I am more likely to wait for the light to come on to judge disposal.

But they get no break for not hustling, and I believe that falls under delaying and by rule the count should start.

Why should they be required to grab the ball as fast as possible too? There should be a reasonable speed expected.

In a parallel situation, disposal is defined in CB 8.1.1A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word "disposal" is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal.

This (and supported by CB 6.1.2B) establishes a definition for at the disposal. It is when the official has given a team sufficient opportunity and time to be in the right spot to execute the free throw (or throwin) but have not done so on their own.

Nothing requires that they sprint to the ball and to OOB to make the throwin.

As an aside, this CB play also addresses the players playing musical lane spots we recently discussed...put the ball in play after sufficient opportunity and time has been given.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Why should they be required to grab the ball as fast as possible too? There should be a reasonable speed expected.

In a parallel situation, disposal is defined in CB 8.1.1A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word "disposal" is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal.

This (and supported by CB 6.1.2B) establishes a definition for at the disposal. It is when the official has given a team sufficient opportunity and time to be in the right spot to execute the free throw (or throwin) but have not done so on their own.

As an aside, this CB play also addresses the players playing musical lane spots we recently discussed...put the ball in play after sufficient opportunity and time has been given.

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Why should they be required to grab the ball as fast as possible too? There should be a reasonable speed expected.

In a parallel situation, disposal is defined in CB 8.1.1A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word "disposal" is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal.

This (and supported by CB 6.1.2B) establishes a definition for at the disposal. It is when the official has given a team sufficient opportunity and time to be in the right spot to execute the free throw (or throwin) but have not done so on their own.

Nothing requires that they sprint to the ball and to OOB to make the throwin.

As an aside, this CB play also addresses the players playing musical lane spots we recently discussed...put the ball in play after sufficient opportunity and time has been given.

If you are interpreting disposal by the book the 5 second count is what requires they hustle.

You keep using case plays where the official handles the ball to illustrate disposal, but we don't normally handle the ball after a made basket.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

MTD, Sr.

Now I'm even more sure I'm correct.

You forgot to post your resume to add weight to your opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

[/B]

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Mark, that's the same bullsh*t that you try to hand out to anyone that disagrees with you. You might be a little more believable if you would or could cite some rules that might back up your some of your fantasies.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I wouldn't mind seeing this rule changed, to be honest. The NBA doesn't allow a team that has just scored to be granted a time-out. I personally like that rule, b/c it eliminates exactly the kind of decision that we're talking about here. In the closing seconds of a close game, the coach is yelling "TIMEOUT!" before the ball even goes in. And then we have to judge if he requests it properly after it goes through but before it's at the other team's disposal. Just eliminate the option to request time-out after you score. While we're at it, eliminate the option for the coach to request the time-out at all. While we're at that, eliminate subs after a made FT to get rid of all those mini-TO's at the end of a game.

I know. It's not gonna happen. But I wish it would. Those subs after every single FT make the game so much longer.

If we're going to change this rule (which I'm not against), I'd like to see the NCAA rule go into effect - stop the clock after any made basket with :59.9 left in the 2nd half/OT period. Frankly, I think that change should be in effect anyways - but that's a different thread.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by blindzebra


If you are interpreting disposal by the book the 5 second count is what requires they hustle.

Originally posted by blindzebra

You keep using case plays where the official handles the ball to illustrate disposal, but we don't normally handle the ball after a made basket.

Including 6.1.2B, all cases have one thing in common (and the official handling the ball is not it). It's that the official determines that the ball is at the thrower's disposal after the player doesn't get it and get in position when they have time and opportunity. There are NO case plays that suggest disposal is to include when the inbounds player picks up the ball alone.

Also, you have failed to define when the situation changes from "normal" to my extreme example. How far away from the bucket do they have to be when they pick up the ball before you consider it abnormal? And, where is THAT defined. (It's not). That alone should make it crystal clear that the beginning of a normal throwin doesn't not begin when the player picks up the ball while still inbounds.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Including 6.1.2B, all cases have one thing in common (and the official handling the ball is not it). It's that the official determines that the ball is at the thrower's disposal after the player doesn't get it and get in position when they have time and opportunity. There are NO case plays that suggest disposal is to include when the inbounds player picks up the ball alone.

Also, you have failed to define when the situation changes from "normal" to my extreme example. How far away from the bucket do they have to be when they pick up the ball before you consider it abnormal? And, where is THAT defined. (It's not). That alone should make it crystal clear that the beginning of a normal throwin doesn't not begin when the player picks up the ball while still inbounds.

The entire point that you are missing is it does not specifically define disposal for after a made basket. It leaves that up to the official's judgment.

The question being asked at the begining of this thread dealt with when the non-throwing team no longer can call a TO, and I'll wager that most officials don't use until they get OOB with the ball as the cut off point.

But hey, MTD agrees with you, so you have that going for you.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by blindzebra

The entire point that you are missing is it does not specifically define disposal for after a made basket. It leaves that up to the official's judgment.

How can you then argue that the rule book clearly supports your position if it is silent on the matter.

Originally posted by blindzebra
The question being asked at the begining of this thread dealt with when the non-throwing team no longer can call a TO, and I'll wager that most officials don't use until they get OOB with the ball as the cut off point.

Perhaps most do. However, I'd also wager that of those that do, most wait to start the count until the player is OOB and in a position to make the throwin. And if they are, they've made an inconsistent decision. Both actions can't be correct.

Originally posted by blindzebra


But hey, MTD agrees with you, so you have that going for you.

Great, that'll make my case!

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 6th, 2005 at 03:44 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by blindzebra
official's judgment.

The question being asked at the begining of this thread dealt with when the non-throwing team no longer can call a TO, and I'll wager that most officials don't use until they get OOB with the ball as the cut off point.

Oh -- we're taking a poll.

In the "normal" circumstance, I wait until the player with teh ball is OOB. When the ball rolls "far away", I wait until the player with the ball is OOB.

Only when the (new) offense is "stalling" do I start before the player with the ball is OOB.

[Rick Durkee]

If the ball were caught directly out ot the basket, by strict interpretation, there would be only a fraction of a second for the team that just scored to request a timeout. I do not recall seeing any official that did not give more leeway than that. So how do we limit the leeway? This situation has been on this board a time or two in the past few months, and given that the rule book does not seem to provide a definite answer, I think the guidelines for interpretation that Cameron describes are reasonable and fair. I wait until the player has the ball out of bounds until I start my count and stop granting requests for timeout, with the same exception for delays that Bob and others describe.

[Edited by Rick Durkee on Jun 6th, 2005 at 10:51 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
In the "normal" circumstance, I wait until the player with teh ball is OOB. When the ball rolls "far away", I wait until the player with the ball is OOB.

Only when the (new) offense is "stalling" do I start before the player with the ball is OOB.

Me, too.