guarding the

[ysong]

Need help for another question.

From a note in NFHS 10-6-3:

"It is assumed the guard may shift to maintain his/her position in the path of the dribbler, provided he/she does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause
contact, as outlined in 10-6-2."

"The guard may not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after he or she is in the air with both feet off the floor."

in this note, what is noticeably missing in the underlined part is "a dribbler". So I wonder:

when facing a guard who establishes his legal guarding position, a dribbler jumps to the side of the defender in an attempt to dribble around him. but in the same time, the defender maitains his guarding position and moves laterally into the path of the dribbler, after the dribbler initiates his jump. when the dribbler falls on the defender's front torso, which player is responsible for the contact?

also, when the dribbler senses that the contact is immiment, he throws the ball away before he lands on the defender, now who should be called foul?

Thanks.

[deecee]

a defender can move side to side or even backwards and draw a charge --

now from what you said the dribbler jumped (so i am assuming a jump stop) and after he jumped the defender moved into postion by where the dribbler was going to land -- this is a block as a player who shoots the ball has a right to return to the floor safely -- same holds true for the dribbler -- now i dont call it a block if the act was very exaggerated -- ie. a running layup where the offensive player jumps forward about 6 feet -- not fair to penalize the defense there -- in this case a normal jump stop is a couple feet in most instances so this would be a block -- now if the defender was there before the player jumps then its a charge assuming there was enough contact to warrant one -- in this instance most times its a nocall as the defender will stumble back for a foot or two regain balance quick and resume defending a held ball with a player who cannot pivot.

Dribbler initated contact on an established defender -- charge

Defender initiated contact by moving to position after dribbler jumped -- block

dribbler passes the ball and then hits defender
a) if defender was there before the jump started -- push on the offense
b) if defender was there after the jump started -- block/nocall depending on severity of contact

[Edited by deecee on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 04:21 PM]

[zebraman]

There is no definition for an "airborne dribbler" so a dribbler who jumps gets no special privileges, unlike an airborne shooter. If the defender had LGP and beat the dribbler to the spot and the dribbler initiated contact, it's a charge.

Z

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by zebraman
There is no definition for an "airborne dribbler" so a dribbler who jumps gets no special privileges, unlike an airborne shooter. If the defender had LGP and beat the dribbler to the spot and the dribbler initiated contact, it's a charge.

Z

I agree.

That would be an amazing defender that can initiate a move after the jump and get into the dribblers path before the dribbler lands.

[deecee]

if this happens and the dribbler sees the defender get infront of him launches up a shot that he wouldnt have you would go from calling a charge to a block and shooting foul -- this is a common sense foul and a player who initiates a jump stop has a right to land without a defender jumping in his path while he is in the air.

[socalreff]

Not so. Dribbler gets no such treatment. Team control foul.

[ysong]

Originally posted by deecee
a defender can move side to side or even backwards and draw a charge --

now from what you said the dribbler jumped (so i am assuming a jump stop) and after he jumped the defender moved into postion by where the dribbler was going to land -- this is a block as a player who shoots the ball has a right to return to the floor safely -- same holds true for the dribbler -- now i dont call it a block if the act was very exaggerated -- ie. a running layup where the offensive player jumps forward about 6 feet -- not fair to penalize the defense there -- in this case a normal jump stop is a couple feet in most instances so this would be a block -- now if the defender was there before the player jumps then its a charge assuming there was enough contact to warrant one -- in this instance most times its a nocall as the defender will stumble back for a foot or two regain balance quick and resume defending a held ball with a player who cannot pivot.

Dribbler initated contact on an established defender -- charge

Defender initiated contact by moving to position after dribbler jumped -- block

dribbler passes the ball and then hits defender
a) if defender was there before the jump started -- push on the offense
b) if defender was there after the jump started -- block/nocall depending on severity of contact

[Edited by deecee on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 04:21 PM]

Thanks for helping me again, Deecee.

What I have understanded so far are, after establishing his legal guarding position:

1. a defender is allowed to moves to maintain his LGP.

2. a defender is not allowed not move into the other player, for example, move into a dribbler who has his head and shoulder passed defender's torso.

3. a defender is not allowed to move under or in front of airborne player without the ball, or after the airborne player just releases the ball.

what I still strugle with are, after establishing his legal guarding position:

1. whether a defender is allowed to move under or in front of airborne player with the ball, either a ball holder or a dribbler?

2. similarly, whether a defender is allowed to move in front of player with the ball who had changed his direction to avoid defender and is in a such state that it is impossible for the ball handler to stop or change direction yet again if the defender moves into his new path the 2nd time? for example, the dribbler changes direction and accelerates by making a huge stride attempting to run by the defender (in fact, the run has to be a jump), but the defender moves infront of him again before that stride finishes and contact happens on defender's front torso.

in both cases, I think the defender still in LGP, in the same time, I also think the contact is really initiated by the defender while maintaining his LGP. so I do not know how to make the call, even in theory.

I'd like to call blocking fouls in both cases, but I do not know the exact rule basis for the calls. Actually, I believe lots ref would call charge foul in case 2.

I am glad you confirmed my call in the case 1. but wonder the reason why you do not call blocking in case 2.

Thanks.

[blindzebra]

First we should not assume the intent of the offensive player when they leave the floor.

There needs to be a distinction between a dribbler and an airborne player who gathers the dribble and is entitled to land.

You need to handle this like a player catching a pass while airborne, see CB 10.6.1.B. If B1 moves into the spot after A1 has jumped any contact before A1 lands is a blocking foul.

To get to ysongs question.

If B1 is on the spot before A1 leaves the floor to pass or shoot you have either a player control foul on a try or a team control foul on a pass.

If A1 is airborne on a try or pass and B1 then moves to the spot it's a blocking foul.

If A1 jumps and gathers his dribble, then B1 moves to the spot, if contact occurs before A1 lands it is a block, if A1 lands and then contact occurs it is a PC foul.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by socalreff
Not so. Dribbler gets no such treatment. Team control foul.

Are you a dribbler if you have gathered your dribble?

see CB 10.6.1.B.