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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:21am
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Question

I just bought this book from NASO the other day. The book is a great resource for those that are unfamiliar with 3 Person. The book has many plays that are not covered at all in the NF OfficialÂ’s Manual.

I was just looking thumbing through it (I have not read it in that much detail right now, I am still working baseball). I noticed something I first thought was wrong. I noticed early in the book when there is an explanation of the basic court coverage. At the bottom of the page there is a comment about the Lead having the closely guarded count. Now I have never been taught to do this and in our state's literature they do not advocate ever giving that count to the Lead official. I then looked up what the NF Official's Manual says so I could contact the author and NASO about this mistake. Then I looked and looked and looked and I cannot find anything that even addresses this in the 3 Person Section of the NF Official's Manual.

My question to everyone, does anyone ever get taught that the Lead official in a 3 Person system should have the closely-guarded count when the ball is in your coverage area? If you are taught this mechanic, then where is it in the NF Official's Manual?

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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:30am
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Where does it say there should be no count by lead?

To me, if the ball is in your primary you are responsible for the ball in your primary and if there is a closely guarded situation...why is the trail officiating on ball in leads primary?

I think this is becoming a myth based on the ball and a dribbling CG count starting in trail or center's primary and then leaving it. In that situation T or C keeps the dribbling count until it drops.
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:36am
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I have been told this too

According to the rules, if it is in your primary, you should have a count. I have had some senior officials tell me that the lead should never have a count. I think their reasoning is that it would be so rare to have someone closely guarded in the lead's primary. And to an extent, they are right. It would be rare to have a 5 second held, 5 second dribbling, 5 second held count. But, it could happen. Usually with all of the action going on in post play, the lead is more focused on other things to watch rather than the 5 second count.

I still do make a count when a change comes in my primary as lead and a closely guarded situation occurs. I have never gotten past 3 seconds though.
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:43am
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I have been told in camp that there should have been a 5 second call on a particular play that was in the lead's area but not in the paint. Until then, I had never thought about it.
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Where does it say there should be no count by lead?

To me, if the ball is in your primary you are responsible for the ball in your primary and if there is a closely guarded situation...why is the trail officiating on ball in leads primary?

I think this is becoming a myth based on the ball and a dribbling CG count starting in trail or center's primary and then leaving it. In that situation T or C keeps the dribbling count until it drops.
This is why I am asking the very question.

This is also not a myth, NCAA Men's Mechanics makes it clear they do not want the Lead to have a count. I was under the impression that the NF had the very same information in their book. I also think the Lead is not in good position to make such a count. If the ball leaves the Lead's area, then how are they going to know if the count should continue? They would also have to come out of looking off ball which is in my opinion the reason they are suppose to be looking at in the first place.

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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 11:48am
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I have always counted from the lead if the situation arises. Although I did have an evaluator tell me not to do it one time. I can't find any mechanic written anywhere that supports the lead not having the count. And if the lead isn't supposed to count, who is? The trail? If the trail is going ot have that count, who is going to watch the off-ball trail-side players?
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by drothamel
If the trail is going ot have that count, who is going to watch the off-ball trail-side players?
The Center official will watch that. If the Trail and Center has the ball completely on their side and there are no competitive match-ups in the Center's primary, the Center should extend their coverage. Many times the Center is going to have a better look at off-ball players.

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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 12:36pm
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I was taught that L never has the count, now that I think about it, it really doesn't make much sense. Why can't the L count?

I think in Women's college the L does have a count?
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 12:44pm
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In the NCAA, it makes more sense. There is much less of a chance for the lead to even have a chance to make such a count. NCAA players are usually good enough so that they don't get stuck down there; or the only reason the ball is in the lead's primary is for post play.

In HS, I have had to count on more than one occaision. Kid dribbles baseline, then gets trapped right in front of you. It isn't very frequent, but it definitely happens.

Proportionately, the lead would have very few opportunities to make a closely guarded count, as most of the lead's primary area is in the paint.
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 02:50pm
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I was actually hoping someone could enlighten me on this as well. I have always been told in HS camps that the L never has a 5-sec. count, but no one has ever been able to tell me why. The answer is usually along the lines of, "There's no reason for the L to call it", or "That's what I've always been taught". I have never been able to find it in any of the books as well. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that there is not a whole lot of non-lane coverage for the L, so there is very little chance for them to have a closely guarded situation. Obviously, in the lane you will have a 3-sec. call before you have a 5-sec. closely guarded. But I've never had anybody answer this - if the L doesn't have that on-ball coverage in their area, who's supposed to have that coverage? And why would there be two sets of eyes watching on-ball, the L to watch for fouls and the other (T?) to count 5-sec.? In NCAA-W the L can have a 5-sec. count, but there is a larger area of coverage, and a larger non-lane area, so it definitely makes sense. So, I wonder if it really is one of those "myths".
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 03:13pm
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It used to be that the L's primary inside the arc below the free throw line extended outside the free throw lane was also a dual area with the T. I know that in Texas this was done away with a few years ago. And I also know that since some Texas people have been put on the mechanics committee of the NF that several things we do have been implemented (not saying it is right or wrong, just the fact). Therefore, if the L's primary is his alone, he needs to have a count for plays that initiate in this area. Somebody has to do it.
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 03:20pm
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I was taught never to count from lead. I can see where there is a slim chance you could have a situation in your primary where you need a count, but has anyone ever called a 5 second violation in their primary from lead?
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Old Thu May 26, 2005, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Junker
I was taught never to count from lead. I can see where there is a slim chance you could have a situation in your primary where you need a count, but has anyone ever called a 5 second violation in their primary from lead?
Yes, several times in 2 whistle. And other than that little strip outside the 3 point line and half the lane the primary is the same in 3.

Ball feeds to post outside the block, one count...two count, guard comes down to double, three count...four count...violation.

Dribbler drives from wing and gets cut off and picks up the dribble and gets trapped.

Any held ball CG count should be made by lead in lead's primary, it makes no sense for anyone else to have that count.
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Old Fri May 27, 2005, 08:57am
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Quote:
Yes, several times in 2 whistle. And other than that little strip outside the 3 point line and half the lane the primary is the same in 3.

Ball feeds to post outside the block, one count...two count, guard comes down to double, three count...four count...violation.

Dribbler drives from wing and gets cut off and picks up the dribble and gets trapped.

Any held ball CG count should be made by lead in lead's primary, it makes no sense for anyone else to have that count.
Agreed, sometimes you have to take a common sense approach to this stuff, even though you don't get taught that way. I have been told not to have a 5-sec CG in L as well, but you've got to stick with what you know sometimes.
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Old Fri May 27, 2005, 12:18pm
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JRut, I was thinking about getting the book, look it over some more and tell me what you think.
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