Is this where basketball politics come in?

[Almost Always Right]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Rule 7-6-3 and 9-2-11 Penalty

Peace

Beat me to it. This is the reference point. Plus the fundamentals. Good stuff!!
AAR

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right

Beat me to it. This is the reference point. Plus the fundamentals. Good stuff!!
AAR

A lot of people beat me to it already.

Peace

[refTN]

Thanks for the incites guys. I love being able to learn. I read my rule book and case book everyday trying to read everything and apparently I had not read this part yet.

By knowing this it makes things even worse for officials. If you call OOB on a player and said his foot was on the line, and not over the line fans won't say a word but you are wrong as far as the rules go. If you don't call out of bounds in the same situation and some fans see it you will get ripped the rest of the game.

Isn't it great to be an official and know you are right while every one else is ignorant of the rules and are booing you all over the place.

I loving being an official!!!!

I still ask the question do you make this call or leave it in a late game situation where very few fans if any saw the kid touch the line? For me I want to make the call. I don't want to be the official that doesn't call something that is automatic at any other point in the game. whether it is good or not I am going to pass on some things late in a game that I would usually take in the first half, but here in accordance to fouls I believe whole heartedly in the advantage/disadvantage philosophy.

If a defender reaches across the offensive players body and creates contact I will call it probably early in the game, but late in the game if it causes the player to lose the ball I have a foul and if it doesn't then play on. This are the things I am talking about.

But I need more incite so keep it coming.

[Goose]

I can feel the pain of refTN!

This past weekend, I had a similar situation, only Team A was leading by 3 with 20 seconds to play. Last game of the Saturday night around 10:00pm.

Team a inbounds and is pressured near the endline in their backcourt. A1 then tries to pivot out of the pressure and unfortunately steps on and over the endline. Me being ever watchful as the new trail administering, looks right down the line and of course, I blow the whistle, and point to the spot of the infraction. Team B now inbounds under their basket and off course hits a 3 to take the game into O.T. "Rats", looks like I won't get home till at least 11:30, and on a Saturday night to boot.

Then what makes matters worse, we go to OT and of course Team A falls behind, and with the clock approaching 1 minute to go, team B steals the dribble at the old hash mark in their frontcourt. B1 breaks away from A1, so of course, A1 tries to prevent B1 from a clear breakaway and you guessed it, pushes B1 squarely in the back with both hands, arms fully extended. Of course, I have Intentional. Gym goes ballistic, except for team B. Team B goes on to win. On the way out, after about 15 minutes, into a rainy night, around 11:00 pm, I get feedback from a fan on how bad my call was. Which one I don't know, and didn't stick around to ask.

But, I do feel the pain. Tough way to end a 12 hour day!

goose

[rockyroad]

If I see it, I call it...doesn't really matter what "time" is left on the clock. Having said that, I seriously doubt I would have seen that foot unless he/she took a huge step out onto the court...got other things to be watching for and not going to focus my attention on that one foot.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by refTN
Thanks for the incites guys.

What did we incite? (Sarcasm sponsored in part by Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy.)

To get to your actual point. . .

It's kind of scary how often this is happening in the last month or so, but once again, I find myself agreeing with Rut. This is not an issue of politics. It's not about who you snuggle up to after association meetings, or who else is getting assignments that they don't deserve.

This is about whether or not you should enforce an obvious violation that gave one team a clear advantage in the final seconds of a close game. And I agree with (what seems to be) the majority here. You call it. And you call it precisely because it gave the throw-in team a big advantage. As JR pointed out, the inbounder saved some time by not being completely OOB. And when you have to go the length of the court in 3 seconds, that's a big advantage.

And, in fact, the NCAA handed down a dictum from on high a few years ago on this very subject. Your situation occured in a D1 NCAA tournament game (women's, I believe). The official did not call the violation, but it was obvious to the defensive coach and to the cameras. There was a bulletin or something (Bob or rocky may have the precise details) that instructed officials to call the violation. Even in a close game. Even with no defensive pressure.

I hope that somebody will have a reference for that bulletin, b/c I don't have it, but I remember it happening.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

But I need more incite so keep it coming.

For a l'il more insight, check out NFHS case book play 9.2.5. It's fairly close to your situation. Note the COMMENT. That tells you where the FED is coming from rules-wise:

"Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertant, it is a violation and NO judgement is required in making the call".

[drothamel]

RefTN-

Hold that head up! You did the right thing. One of the most important attributes an offical can possess is COURAGE. That means you make the right call when it needs to be made, regardless of the amount of time on the clock. Sounds to me like that is exactly what you did. In this case, it doesn't really matter who else saw it-- you saw it. You were supposed to see it. You made the call. It was the right call. If I'm you, I would have a hard time living with myself if I held my whistle there. This isn't a judgement type call, it's an automatic. You did your job, so be proud.

[SeanFitzRef]

I agree, make the call. My game mgmt. soapbox really had nothing to do with this play.

Put it this way, refTN.

If you had allowed the violation to occur, and team B throws a long pass to hit a shot, and the shooter gets fouled to end the game, you incorrectly influenced the game by NOT making the original violation call. Courage and integrity are some of the ingredients needed to make a good official, and you displayed them here. If that superior/evaluator feels that a call like that, in that sitch, would not get you work in a particular assoc./conference, you don't need to work there anyway. Be able to look yourself in the mirror, and be willing to make the calls you see fit. If it will stand on tape/video, it's a good call.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[
And, in fact, the NCAA handed down a dictum from on high a few years ago on this very subject. Your situation occured in a D1 NCAA tournament game (women's, I believe). The official did not call the violation, but it was obvious to the defensive coach and to the cameras. There was a bulletin or something (Bob or rocky may have the precise details) that instructed officials to call the violation. Even in a close game. Even with no defensive pressure.

I hope that somebody will have a reference for that bulletin, b/c I don't have it, but I remember it happening. [/B]

Don't have a reference handy, but there was a bulletin...after the UCLA tournament game...that violation was one of the "huge ones" I mentioned earlier - she was way onto the court when she passed it...basically the bulletin said that we cannot miss those types of violations - they MUST be called.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by refTN
I guess this is where my stupidity kicks in. You mean the player can step on the line as long as his foot is not touching the playing area.

By the way his foot was touching the inbounds area.

Just for my knowledge can I have where this is in the rule book?

Seeing the rules reference has already been posted, an easy way to remember this is "What would I do on a court where the out-of-bounds is indicated by an 8" band?"

[stosh]

Originally posted by refTN
By knowing this it makes things even worse for officials. If you call OOB on a player and said his foot was on the line, and not over the line fans won't say a word but you are wrong as far as the rules go. If you don't call out of bounds in the same situation and some fans see it you will get ripped the rest of the game.

It is OOB if a player steps on the line while in bounds. It is not in bounds if a player throwing the ball from out of bounds steps on the line (which as previously discussed is entirely OOB).

I would make the call and let the superior justify why he is blackballing you for making the proper call. Good job!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Seeing the rules reference has already been posted, an easy way to remember this is "What would I do on a court where the out-of-bounds is indicated by an 8" band?"

Or even more, the Vanderbilt floor which has a band several feet thick.

[brainbrian]

Good call.

You said this was an AAU game, but to pretend it was a big game. But in a big game, I wouldn't expect this to happen. Any game with good caliber players and no kid would cost his team the game on such a stupid move on his part.

Again, good call, no matter the level.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by brainbrian
You said this was an AAU game, but to pretend it was a big game. But in a big game, I wouldn't expect this to happen. Any game with good caliber players and no kid would cost his team the game on such a stupid move on his part.

But has been pointed out, Brian, it did happen in a big game. UCLA women in the NCAA tournament!! It happens.