anticipating the call

deecee · #1 (**permalink**) Fri May 13, 2005, 10:29pm

OK this happened to me about 2 weekends ago -- girls jv/varsity tourney im the trail...

offense has the ball about 5-8 feet off the block in my primary -- defense strips the ball and the offensive player falls to the ground -- lucky for her the ball bounces right back into her lap -- she is sitting there on the floor with the ball and her defender was just reaching in a bit to get the ball (no foul and it was more like a peck here or there) in abot 2-3 seconds now there are 8 girls around her kinds boxing out trying to get at the ball but no real hard contact -- this has now got all the signs of a train wrek and my partner is about 3 feet away and im about 10 feet away -- i didnt close in because my partner had the play clearly so i let her take my primary there -- so to derail the impending trains i blow the whistle and call a jump ball as a defender was right over her and about to pounce. Let me be clear there was NO jump ball but I felt it was the best solution for the impending pileup in an already physical game. No coach or player argued or said a word as i blew a hard whistle closed out and pointed at the 2 who were supposedly involved.

My partner thought that was a bad move...I usually dont anticipate calls but to not blow this play dead where it stood would have been inviting potential disaster. good or bad move on my part -- should i have let it play out?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Fri May 13, 2005, 10:33pm

No good can come from this play. When you've got girls on the floor, scrambling for a ball, find somthing.

mplagrow · #3 (**permalink**) Fri May 13, 2005, 10:41pm

As you noticed, nobody argued. Call the jump ball before the train wreck gets worse. That is, if you are reffing girls or grade schoolers. Or worse yet, grade school girls!

Camron Rust · #4 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 01:37am

I not sure I can agree with calling something that you know didn't happen. I would immediately call a foul or travel if one happened.

Nu1 · #5 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 08:17am

I recently read through a fairly intense thread on "Look at the feet" and the idea of passing on a violation that was apparently clearly seen. My thought on that was, if you see it, call it.

In like manner, I don't agree with calling something that didn't happen just because you anticipate that it might. Why not anticipate that the girl on the ground would roll around and commit a traveling violation and call that?

I admittedly have made an error or two by anticipating a play (like a foul) and calling it, only later to think, "I messed that one up." But I don't agree with knowingly calling something you didn't see.

brainbrian · #6 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by deecee
there are 8 girls around her boxing out trying to get at the ball but no real hard contact -- this has now got all the signs of a train wrek and my partner is about 3 feet away and im about 10 feet away -- i didnt close in because my partner had the play clearly

If you have 10 people all corraled in a little circle I wouldn't see why you wouldn't move in. Basically you're leaving your partner to monitor 10 people why you sit 10 feet away. And how do you expect to call a jump ball from 10 feet away between two people at the bottom of a pile that your partner is three feet away from. I would have at least moved in before calling my jump ball.

I heard about a ref about thirty years ago blew his whistle on a similar play that wouldn't seem to end and yelled, "Too much action! White ball!"

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by brainbrian

Quote:

Originally posted by deecee
there are 8 girls around her boxing out trying to get at the ball but no real hard contact -- this has now got all the signs of a train wrek and my partner is about 3 feet away and im about 10 feet away -- i didnt close in because my partner had the play clearly

If you have 10 people all corraled in a little circle I wouldn't see why you wouldn't move in. Basically you're leaving your partner to monitor 10 people why you sit 10 feet away. And how do you expect to call a jump ball from 10 feet away between two people at the bottom of a pile that your partner is three feet away from. I would have at least moved in before calling my jump ball.

Disagree completely. There's no reason in the world for you to be that close, even if it was in your primary to begin with.

Who's gonna get anything else that now may happen- even a few feet away from the girl on the floor? Answer: Nobody- because neither of you will be able to really see anything if you're both that close.

Leave the call to the official that's 3 feet away and keep an eye on what else might be going on around the play. You're better off keeping a wide view on the play. Getting too close to a play like this can block you off just as bad as being too far away.

Btw, I'm with Camron. Don't call a jump ball until it actually is a jump ball. Don't penalize the player with the ball by not allowing her to legally pass the ball, call a TO, etc. There's no reason in the world to blow a whistle on this play until something- foul,violation, TO request- actually happens. If a defender just wants to jump on her, call the foul. That's the right call- and the proper call. You don't allow illegal contact by the defender when they're going for the ball. We had a POE from the FED a few years ago saying exactly the same thing.

The answer to the original question of this thread is "call what happens".

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by brainbrian
If you have 10 people all corraled in a little circle I wouldn't see why you wouldn't move in. Basically you're leaving your partner to monitor 10 people why you sit 10 feet away. And how do you expect to call a jump ball from 10 feet away between two people at the bottom of a pile that your partner is three feet away from. I would have at least moved in before calling my jump ball.

How far do you think 10 feet is?

There's absolutely no reason to move in any closer. You need to stay wide enough to see all 10 players.

As for the play, I stand by my original post and I honestly don't think that we're that far apart. I don't think you have to call a jump ball. But you'd better be watchful and get ready to call something because 99 times of out 100, you're going to have a foul, violation, or held ball. Find it before somebody gets hurt.

deecee · #9 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 11:56am

this would have been the same game where i learned to always roll the ball -- after a full court pass to my partner that hit the only damn player on that side of the court...square on the head -- O what a jackass i felt like (btw she was also the best player on both teams)

JugglingReferee · #10 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 12:02pm

If I'm the Referee, I've got a held ball.

If I'm the Umpire, I've got simultaneous fouls - one personal and one technical. Then let my P figure out what to do.

mplagrow · #11 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by deecee
this would have been the same game where i learned to always roll the ball -- after a full court pass to my partner that hit the only damn player on that side of the court...square on the head -- O what a jackass i felt like (btw she was also the best player on both teams)

Quite the interesting sounding game. How many girls were playing on both teams?

ChrisSportsFan · #12 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by brainbrian

Quote:

Originally posted by deecee
there are 8 girls around her boxing out trying to get at the ball but no real hard contact -- this has now got all the signs of a train wrek and my partner is about 3 feet away and im about 10 feet away -- i didnt close in because my partner had the play clearly

If you have 10 people all corraled in a little circle I wouldn't see why you wouldn't move in. Basically you're leaving your partner to monitor 10 people why you sit 10 feet away. And how do you expect to call a jump ball from 10 feet away between two people at the bottom of a pile that your partner is three feet away from. I would have at least moved in before calling my jump ball.

I heard about a ref about thirty years ago blew his whistle on a similar play that wouldn't seem to end and yelled, "Too much action! White ball!"

I can see 10 players from 10 feet away better than I can see 10 players from 3 feet away.

canuckrefguy · #13 (**permalink**) Sat May 14, 2005, 11:38pm

I agree with the call - IF, and only IF you wait until there is actually a hint of a tie-up.

If all you have is players standing around, you've got nothing.

The minute a player is able to reach down and even remotely tie-up the ball, then come in hard with the AP.

Yes, preventative officiating is good, but I have a feeling you may have jumped in too early on this one - maybe only 2-3 seconds too early, but too early nontheless.

As well, if you were more than twice as far away from the play as your partner, you'd better be less than half the distance away when you make the call.

South GA BBall Ref · #14 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 09:23pm

Don't anticipate the call, anticipate the play. I must agree with your partner on this one. Only call what happens.

mplagrow · #15 (**permalink**) Sun May 15, 2005, 10:13pm

If you've got a quick whistle the second that two girls from opposing teams have a hand on the ball, nobody will complain. You can be quicker on the whistle with that jump ball call than one in the open court. Odds are also pretty good if there are bodies on the floor that you could have a travel.