Van Gundy fined for comments about playoff officiating

[ysong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by ysong

No, I was here long before Bushref OR YOU, ever showed up.

I don't need a nap. I just don't anybody placing conditions of how I reply to a question.

I am obligated to info you that my respect for you is wearing thin.

Here was what I said in my post: "Of course, I know all the cynical "answers". so spare me those. Please help me with some objective insights."

Tell me why the request of objective opinions is so hateful?

but if you decide to answer this question, please be polite, in a self-respecting manner. If you do not like this condition, your are not obligated at all to help me with this.

Thanks.

ysong

[Goose]

TO Dan_ref

>Assming your premise is true, there's a very good reason >why an accomplished D1 basketball official might not jump >to the NBA: typically they have day jobs. Jumping to the >NBA would mean a loss of income, benefits and job security >for these people. Not to mention some of these folks >actually like their day job and wouldn't want to ditch it >for a shot at the NBA. But I would bet you not one of them >would say he wouldn't love to work in the NBA, if >officiating was the only consideration.

I do tend to agree with this with the following assumptions on my part.

Most D1 people I know are self employed. The ones that aren't in many cases get leaves of absences from their jobs. Years ago, a top D1 official was put under the microscope up in Syracuse because he would leave his "day" job for 6 months, which became problematic because it was affecting other departments. So, to be a top flight D1 official, I would guess that they have to give up their regular jobs just to make their schedules since many work 4-5 times per week. Most regular joes like myself are not self employed, nor own the company, and therefore cannot meet the demands of being on site 4-6 hours before game time.

And the ones I have happened to speak with over the years haven't had a single good word to say about the NBA. They, to a T have told me the "game" stinks. Not the officials, but the game itself.

Another issue why they don't/won't jump I think, is the fact that they are at the top in the NCAA and why jump to be put back at the bottom? Then again, if the NBA was serious about the integrity of the game, they should want the best, and start courting some of these individuals. Now, I don't know that they don't, but you never hear of a top D1 official moving to the NBA. At least I'm not aware of it. The NFL does a fine job of mentoring and so does baseball where there is no doubt as to whom the best are, the guys working the the majors, or in the NFL.

>As for whether the game is 'entertainment' or not: there's >a reason why even low ncaa & HS 'fans' follow their teams. >Because it entertains them. I'm not sure I understand why >you have a problem with this btw. You might as well >compare a production of the Bolshoi Ballet at Lincoln >Center to your lowly WWE. Afterall, they are both >merely 'entertainment'.

The main problem I have with the NBA is that they are desparate for fan appeal, and in that zeal to gain acceptance which football and baseball have, they take the easy road and simply use entertainment as the main focal point. Kind of like the Globetrotters. But are the Globetrotters playing good basketball? They once did, but those days are long gone and now they are just entertainers with a basketball court as a stage.

It's just me, and my opinion, but I believe the game should be the selling point. I personally don't watch the game to see player x or y, although I admit it makes it interesting, but I watch because I like the GAME. I used to love Olympic basketball because we could take a bunch of no-named college kids and kick butt because we played the GAME better. One can argue till the cows come home why with the talent we have why we should ever lose in International competition, but it all comes down to playing the game as it was meant, and not playing like a bunch of individuals. This is why I am all for returning to letting our college kids play and leave the Pro's to entertainment.

The movie Hoosiers is not entertaining because it had great basketball players, instead, what made it interesting and entertaining was watching a bunch of underachievers accomplish something extra ordinary all within the confines of the game of basketball. That is what excites me, and I guess that is why I have appreciated John Wooden's approach to the game ever since I tuned in years ago, late one night to watch a game in the Astrodome. Players come and go, but it is the game that remains, and the NBA should put the integrity of the game before any individual IMO.

goose

[BBall_Junkie]

I am leaving this thread open because I believe that there is very interesting dialouge taking place here.

Ysong,

BktballRef has made it clear that he is going to reply how he sees fit and the forum is inclined to let him do so as long as it is "above board". If he wants to be cynical, silly, serious, insightful that is his business as long as he does not make the post a personal attack on any of the members including yourself and keeps the posts "in the realm of what is considered common human decency" (Sorry Chuck, but I find the squirrel picture pretty humourous and will be allowed going forward!!!).

If you do not like his posts or do not find value in them please ignore them. Your last post here gives the appearance that you are trying to "stoke a flame war". Please post your questions and filter out what you want.

Thanks.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

The NBA uses the NBDL, the WNBA, pro camps and summer leagues to develop their young officials. Prior to the development of these leagues, they used the CBA. So yes, the NBA does have their own minor leagues, where they develop their own officials.

Evenso, they are plenty of NBA officials who were D-1 officials. Joe Forte was at the absolute top of D-1 officiating when he went to the NBA Joe DeRosa was a D-1 offiical as Violet Palmer who was one of the top women's officials. Zach Zarba is a recent addition to the NBA from D-1. I'd have to look at the roster to give you a list but there are plenty.

As for fighting to get in, some are, some aren't. Many of the D-1 guys make as much or more money that NBA officials, plus the season is shorter. There are more games available and college basketball is a popular game. I'm sure there are many college officials who are content, working the college game.

So yes, it is happening and I guess you haven't seen it. Seems you're not as informed as you thought.

Add to the list of former NCAA officials now working the NBA:

Benny Adams
Courtney Kirkland
Anthony Jordan
Tony Brown
Nolan Fein (sp?)
Olandis Poole (I think).

I believe there is more but this, along with what has already been listed is just off of the top of my head. I would therefore say that your theory is starting to lose traction relative to this point.

[tomegun]

Orlandis Poole was a rookie in the NBA this past season. Add to the list:

Joe Forte
Tommy Nunez Jr.
Mark Ayote (sp?)
Zach Zarba
Violet Palmer

I think all of these were very good officials in their respective conferences.

Orlandis Poole is probably one of the only NBA officials to have the distinction of doing a final four. And it was the year previous to him making the jump.

I always wonder when I see posts bashing the NBA game. It is very interesting to me when you have an organization like this and they are on the same page to the extent they are. I think they have personalities and in the NCAA there are more egos. Meaning Joe Crawford will side step down the court but his calls will be in line with all the other officials for the most part. It is also good to see how they talk to players and most of them do so without any emotion. The game is what it is. Most people don't realize that it would be very difficult to call their game straight up and down because of the talent involved. It is almost impossible for any one player to defend another player one on one. Teams do well on defense by embracing the team philosophy and even then it is tough. It might not meet the approval of most purists but it is still a great game.

[Edited by tomegun on May 6th, 2005 at 12:10 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Goose

Most D1 people I know are self employed. The ones that aren't in many cases get leaves of absences from their jobs. Years ago, a top D1 official was put under the microscope up in Syracuse because he would leave his "day" job for 6 months, which became problematic because it was affecting other departments. So, to be a top flight D1 official, I would guess that they have to give up their regular jobs just to make their schedules since many work 4-5 times per week. Most regular joes like myself are not self employed, nor own the company, and therefore cannot meet the demands of being on site 4-6 hours before game time.

Maybe it's just the A-10, but I've never seen a college official show up 4-6 hours before game time.

Also, as odd as their schedules may be, a lot of D-I officials enjoy their 'day jobs.' Obviously, it can be difficult to manage, but the 'big guys' generally hold a job and ref. I've worked (both in basketball and in the office setting) with a D-I ref from DC who does mainly Big Ten games - he has worked it out with his employer, and has a job that allows him to come in at any time, just as long as the work gets done.

While I certainly don't anticipate myself ever getting a major D-I schedule, I've certainly kept basketball officiating in the back of my head when planning out a career. It's certainly a doable thing.

[IUgrad92]

Quote from JRutledge:

>That is just crap. Shaq and Tim Duncan foul out a lot. These are two of the best big men in the >game and they foul out in big games and when the spotlight is the brightest.

Actual statistics brought to light...........Shaq fouled out 4 times this year, in 73 games. Tim Duncan did not foul out at all, in 66 games.

Yep, these guys are fouling out left and right! What an outrage!!!!!!!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by IUgrad92
Quote from JRutledge:

>That is just crap. Shaq and Tim Duncan foul out a lot. These are two of the best big men in the >game and they foul out in big games and when the spotlight is the brightest.

Actual statistics brought to light...........Shaq fouled out 4 times this year, in 73 games. Tim Duncan did not foul out at all, in 66 games.

Yep, these guys are fouling out left and right! What an outrage!!!!!!!!!!

I did not say left and right. You said that officials pass on fouls because they are starts. Remember this is your claim, not mine. Shaq and Duncan are either one or two with most fouls on their respective teams. So if they are not fouling out, no one on their team is fouling out. I would also assume that because these players are on some of the best teams, they are not playing at the end of blowouts.

Where is your proof? You cannot have it both ways. Prove that the scrubs are getting more fouls. Remember, this is your claim not mine. You are the one saying that the NBA officials purposely do not call fouls on superstars. Even if I am wrong about how many times they foul out, how many times is that compared to others on their teams and what other players are doing around the league? You cannot just show their numbers and not compare other teams and other players. And even if you compare other players, you better include comparable teams. I bet there are Detroit Pistons that do not foul out very much. The better teams have better players and play smarter. Whether that is shot selection and percentage or how many fouls are committed.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by tomegun
Orlandis Poole was a rookie in the NBA this past season. Add to the list:

Joe Forte
Tommy Nunez Jr.
Mark Ayote (sp?)
Zach Zarba
Violet Palmer

I think all of these were very good officials in their respective conferences.

Orlandis Poole is probably one of the only NBA officials to have the distinction of doing a final four. And it was the year previous to him making the jump.

Joe Forte and Violet Palmer have worked Final Four games in college.

[Goose]

To JRutledge:

>You think better defensive players commit more fouls? You >just lost all credibility right there.

Not necessarily, but if you are playing aggressive defense, it tends to lend itself to commiting more fouls.

Let's see, Team A plays zone while Team B plays man-to-man. Which team usually (not always) has more fouls?

The fact is that Jordan rarely fouled out, yet was considered a great defensive player. In an earlier reply you said that because centers often were the last line of defense, they were apt to create more fouls. So, centers that play agressively on the defensive end are prone to more fouls, but the guards that play more agressively are not.

Like I said, as great as Jordan was, he was no different than the other great stars in the league in that he benifited from star treatment.


>So are you telling me it was a conspiracy that Jordan was >healthy all the time in his career? If a player fouls out >it is usually at the end of the game. Players do not foul >out in the first 5 minutes of the game. During the Bulls >first championship, it was the bench that had an amazing >run, not the starters which included Jordan.

Please, enough on Jordan. He was used as an illustration and I am hardly here to discuss the health of Jordan.

Now, as for not fouling out in the first 5 minutes, most of us that have watched Shaq could say that he could have fouled out in 5 minutes or he could have fouled out whomever was guarding him in 5 minutes. Take your pick.

>It is obvious to me you just do not like the NBA game. It >is obvious to me you do not watch or follow much >basketball. Stars foul out all the time. I see stars get >frustrated and get thrown out for their behavior.

Don't be silly. I'm not going to get into a LDPC over who has watched more basketball, when you have made it clear that you are a bit fuzzy on Wilt, who BTW was the greatest of all time, period. But that is another discussion. The fact still remains, that Wilt NEVER fouled out of a game. Kind of amazing seeing that he was one of those centers whom you claim attract more fouls.

As for liking the NBA, I would be more apt to say I tolerate it. I enjoy the game of basketball, but I do not enjoy watching many NBA games, and from their ratings, it appears that most others don't watch it either.

As for losing credibility, you surely don't want me to pull out the NBA stat book, do you?

The point is, and it has been this way since the first Celtic title, is that the stars in the NBA have received preferred treatment by the referees. I'm not the only one saying it as I said to Chuck, even players past and present say that it is true. Now, is it just perception on their parts and those of the fans, or is it really true?


goose

[BBall_Junkie]

Nolan Fine officiated the 1987 NCAA championship game, so there is another "Final Four Official". Therefore, there have been several officials make the leap from NCAA to NBA and many of them obviously, based on the fact that they worked the Final Four and/or Championship Game, have been top NCAA officials.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I did not say left and right. You said that officials pass on fouls because they are starts. Remember this is your claim, not mine.
Peace

Once again, Jeff is presented with real facts and he changes his story even though he's quoted as saying "they foul out a lot". Last time I checked, 0 doesn't qualify as a lot by anyone's definition, except Jeff's. Even 4 out of 73 is hardly a lot.

IUGrad, you'll come to expect this from him. He talks as he's the absolute authority on all subjects basketball. Then when presented with facts that refute his claims, he'll divert the discussion or try weasel out of it by claiming that basketball and officiating in Illinois are not like it is anywere else.


[Edited by Camron Rust on May 6th, 2005 at 05:18 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ysong
I am obligated to info you that my respect for you is wearing thin.

Hopefully that means you won't email me with anymore questions.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The word "illegal" means against the rules. It also can mean against the law. It is illegal in the game of basketball to double dribble. It is illegal in the NBA to publicly criticize the NBA and the officials through the media.

BTW, I was using the words of a previous poster to make an opposite point. If you are going to drop in the middle of a post and start saying something, at the very least read the entire post. Or use a dictionary.

Peace

You responded to my post on the first page, then forgot that you did, then responded to a post that was not addressed to you, while ignoring the post that was addressed to you on the same page, then advised me to not drop in on the middle of a thread?

As far as using a dictionary, you are using a secondary definition of illegal when it is quite clear that the primary definition was intended from the context. The sentence makes no sense if the secondary defintion is intended.

While I respect your knowlege of basketball and officiating, there is no need to lecture me to use a dictionary.

Remember ... Endeavor to eschew obfuscation.

[ysong]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

[/B]

Are you kidding? Have you ever asked him a most basic question about basketball rule before? I did. When he realized his answer was wrong, he lectured me about what good officiating was all about, adviced me it would only paralized me if I paid too much attention to those little things, intimidated me with his many years experience, it went on and on...

Of course he has the authority for any topics related to basketball, he knows a person or two who really know some top tier officials. Of course he is superior than the rest of the group. Just look at the many big titles that are dragged along in every single post of his.

Talking about "respect", has he really earned any yet?

thanks.