Van Gundy fined for comments about playoff officiating

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Goose
to JRutledge:

>That is just crap. Shaq and Tim Duncan foul out a lot. These are two of the best big men in the >game and they foul out in big games and when the spotlight is the brightest.

Purely an assumption. IÂ’d like to see the stats. As I said, when they do foul out, it makes news all over the papers and this thread proves my point. When was the last time that Steve Nash fouling out made headlines?

Look them up. I am sure this is on the internet somewhere. Maybe that information is on NBA.com.

Originally posted by Goose
As for bigmen or centers in general, how many times did Wilt foul out? None! DonÂ’t recall Kareem fouling out a lot either, and Duncan is not even in the same league as those two. Again, the issue remains that the NBA NEEDS their stars to stay in the game or there will be a collective 'click' heard throughout the land.

You do not recall Kareem fouling out? Dude, you really do not know your basketball. I cannot speak for Wilt. I was not alive during most of his career. I do remember Kareem and if you think he never fouled out, you did not watch much basketball.

Originally posted by Goose
Now, does baseball survive without Barry Bonds who is arguably the best player in the game? Could the NBA survive without Shaq? That was the big question after Jordan left as to who would now carry the torch. This only appears in the NBA from what I can tell. Baseball will exist, and exist on a high level without Bonds, Pedro, Manny, Mantle, Ryan, Mays, Rose, etc. The NFL will florish without Peyton, or Brett. In fact, it just keeps getting better while the NBA continues its downward spiral. IMO it has sacrificed the game for the sake of entertaining the fans.

Baseball is a different game. The game of baseball does not change in style because someone is playing. The style of basketball is constantly changing. The NFL changes as players change and coaching philosophies change. The NFL today is nothing like it was in the 70s or 60s. And one of the things that make the NFL and MLB different is the history. The Chicago Bears and Green Bay Packers have been around since early part of the 20th century. Even NFL teams that have moved still maintain their names for the most part. The Rams, Cardinals and Colts are all examples of teams that have kept their names after a move from one city to another. That is all apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Goose
>Perimeter players like Michael Jordan or Allen Iverson are >not going to foul out. They do not block shots and they >are not the last line of defense in or around the basket.

But Jordan was regarded as the best defensive player at the time, or at least was on the all defensive team many years. I would suspect that anyone that was regarded as such a great defender would commit more fouls. As you have stated, it is the defenders that are/do commit more fouls. But I guess he just moved his feet better.

You think better defensive players commit more fouls? You just lost all credibility right there.

Originally posted by Goose
>Does it ever occur to people that stars do not foul or get >fouled because they make better decisions?

And it just could be, could be, that Jordan was pumping in millions of viewers in the same way Tiger Woods does for the PGA. What would the ratings have been if Jordan constantly got in foul trouble, or didnÂ’t play? The ratings dictate a lot and what makes anyone think that it doesnÂ’t play a part in the NBA.

So are you telling me it was a conspiracy that Jordan was healthy all the time in his career? If a player fouls out it is usually at the end of the game. Players do not foul out in the first 5 minutes of the game. During the Bulls first championship, it was the bench that had an amazing run, not the starters which included Jordan.

It is obvious to me you just do not like the NBA game. It is obvious to me you do not watch or follow much basketball. Stars foul out all the time. I see stars get frustrated and get thrown out for their behavior.

[IUgrad92]

Man Rut, your selective reading makes for unreadable replies you make. Goose said he didn't recall Kareem fouling out A LOT (I don't either!). He didn't say Kareem NEVER fouled out, as you suggest.

Pretty tacky to change someone's statement, just so that you can make an argumentative point.

Funny too, that someone makes a statement and you ask them for statistics and proof. Yet, you make a statement and don't think it's necessary to provide the same proof that you demand.

Shaq and Duncan foul out a lot??? I guess it depends on what your definition of 'a lot' it. Fouling out once every 3-4 games is a lot, IMHO. I guarantee these guys don't foul out that often.

Can someone make a good argument as to why, if NBA players are so much more highly skilled, etc., they are given leeway in regards to 'extra' steps to make their offensive moves (dunks, etc.)

[Dribble]

Having met several NBA officials, I can truly say that they're at the top of the class. Their ability to make split second decisions correctly speaks to the difficulty it takes to make it to that level.

Perhaps comparing the NCAA game and the NBA is apples and oranges, but Hank Nichols (NCAA coordinator of men's officiating) recently came out with a memo saying that the NCAA game has become more physical than the pro game. I fully agree with his memo -- the tournament looked more like hand-to-hand combat than basketball. If the supervisor of the NCAA wants to clean up the college game to the NBA level, then doesn't that mean the pros are doing something right?

No one is going to deny that the NBA is about entertainment. And yes, the stars do get a little more protection because imagine the melee that would ensue if a player tried to take your star's head off? Just like in hockey, you'd have teammates readily coming to defend the star.

As for van Gundy, I can see there being truth behind his comments. Haven't we all had a pre-game where we tell each other to watch out for Player X's tendencies, etc.? My concern is the possibility that an NBA official would pass that comment along. Doesn't sound very professional to me, and considering the person isn't working the playoffs suggests that it's a younger official with very little judgment. If true, then this person will definitely be looking for a new job next year.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Goose
I stand corrected. Basically you should have known that I was talking major pro leagues. Does the CBA even exist any more? I believe my point still stands from the 4 majors. The NBA is the worse. As with the other majors, you see the college ranks serving as the minor leagues so to speak for officials, and when they are good enough, they move up to MLB, NFL, or NHL. Don't know the stats, but it is rare from what I have seen where a great college official moves up to the NBA. If the NBA were on the same level as the others, you would see great college guys fighting to get in. Maybe it is happening, but I haven't seen it.

The NBA uses the NBDL, the WNBA, pro camps and summer leagues to develop their young officials. Prior to the development of these leagues, they used the CBA. So yes, the NBA does have their own minor leagues, where they develop their own officials.

Evenso, they are plenty of NBA officials who were D-1 officials. Joe Forte was at the absolute top of D-1 officiating when he went to the NBA Joe DeRosa was a D-1 offiical as Violet Palmer who was one of the top women's officials. Zach Zarba is a recent addition to the NBA from D-1. I'd have to look at the roster to give you a list but there are plenty.

As for fighting to get in, some are, some aren't. Many of the D-1 guys make as much or more money that NBA officials, plus the season is shorter. There are more games available and college basketball is a popular game. I'm sure there are many college officials who are content, working the college game.

So yes, it is happening and I guess you haven't seen it. Seems you're not as informed as you thought.

[BktBallRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ysong

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Somebody needs a nap, real bad.

I wonder if Bushref has re-incarnated again.

No, I was here long before Bushref OR YOU, ever showed up.

I don't need a nap. I just don't anybody placing conditions of how I reply to a question.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by IUgrad92
Man Rut, your selective reading makes for unreadable replies you make. Goose said he didn't recall Kareem fouling out A LOT (I don't either!). He didn't say Kareem NEVER fouled out, as you suggest.

Pretty tacky to change someone's statement, just so that you can make an argumentative point.

You are the last person to try to tell me what I have to prove when you stated FIBA officials in the Olympics were better than NBA officials. Of course that is an opinion. When it was very clear that the best in many parts of the world were not even allowed to officiate the 2004 Olympic Games, you really have much nerve.

I did not bring up Kareem. But I used to watch a lot of NBA games and Kareem was in foul trouble a lot. Especially when they played the Celtics and he had to go up against Hakeem and other up and coming Centers in the league at that time.

Originally posted by IUgrad92
Funny too, that someone makes a statement and you ask them for statistics and proof. Yet, you make a statement and don't think it's necessary to provide the same proof that you demand.

Shaq and Duncan foul out a lot??? I guess it depends on what your definition of 'a lot' it. Fouling out once every 3-4 games is a lot, IMHO. I guarantee these guys don't foul out that often.

Well we are not using your definition. I bet you that Shaq fouled out at least 10 times this year. Shaq only played in 73 games. He led the Heat this year in fouls with 3.60 per game. Dwayne Wade the other superstar averaged 3.00 fouls per game. Udonis Haslem was the second highest on the Heat team with 3.30 fouls per game. Eddie Jones was next with 3.10 on the Heat team.

When I looked at the Spurs, Tim Duncan had 2.20 Fouls per game in 66 games. There were two players that averaged more. The top fouler was Rasho Nesterovic with 3.00 a Center on the Spurs.

What does this mean, well that depends? It clearly shows on these two teams who the superstars are the front line players they fouled more. If you look at the other players, you will see that in general the guards for the most part did not foul that much unless they put up a lot minutes.

Unfortunately I could not find a stat that ranked the players league wide, but this is more research than you have done. Remember, you said that the NBA officials do not call fouls on these players and they are near the top on their team. If they are not fouling, who is?

Originally posted by IUgrad92
Can someone make a good argument as to why, if NBA players are so much more highly skilled, etc., they are given leeway in regards to 'extra' steps to make their offensive moves (dunks, etc.)

We do not have to explain that, you need to explain what that means to us. Extra steps have nothing to do with traveling. Moving a pivot foot does. I think Tony said it best, I can look at any gym at any level and I can call out many travels that were not made. The NBA is not the only place where traveling is not call consistently. Part of the problem is that it is hard to call. A D1 NCAA Conference Assignor said at a banquet a few years back, "Traveling is the most inconsistent call in college basketball." I watched part of the Pacers-Celtics game and Antoine Walker (Chi-town) get called for a travel trying to make a move to the basket.

Where is your proof?

Peace

[Jimgolf]

From the AP:

Former referee Hue Hollins said yesterday that he brought this up "years ago," when Ed Rush was the NBA's director of officiating.

"These were my exact words: I said, 'Ed, we do not do a good job of refereeing our big people,' " Hollins said in a telephone interview. "And that has been the way since I've been in the league. You can go back to the Patrick Ewings, Yao Mings, Shaquille O'Neals. I said, 'Just because a little guy who weighs 180 pounds runs into the chest of Shaquille O'Neal and O'Neal doesn't fall down, that doesn't mean [the little guy] didn't commit an offensive foul.' "

Hollins said it was difficult to believe that a referee would single out a player.

"I can understand David's point," Hollins said. "You don't want to ever have that kind of impropriety even thought about. I've watched that series... and the times that he has set an illegal pick, I saw the guys call it. I don't think he's getting away with anything that anyone else gets away with."

But Hollins also said that officials don't emerge from their hotel rooms totally unaware of what's going on outside.

"The one thing you don't want as an official is to be surprised," he said. "If you're a crew chief, you'd have a rather thorough pregame meeting. Guys read the papers. Are you going to be more cognizant of a guy doing something? Of course you would. That's human nature... Don't discount this [either]. We have superstar people in this league. Do we want that big man sitting on the bench? I don't think so. Let's be real about this."

The problem for Van Gundy is that if he names the referee, he risks incurring the (sotto voce) wrath of officials. But if he pleads the Fifth - or says he made the whole thing up to make a point, a theory the league is peddling to some - he will have Stern to deal with down the road.

Talk about a Hobson's choice.

"If he was lying, I would think they would have him on a very, very short leash," Hollins said of his referee brethren. "No one wants you to discredit their profession. Knowing Jeff, it would be very hard for me to believe he was lying. I have a lot of respect for him."

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Questioning the integrity of the league is quite illegal. Why do you think he got fined?
....
Peace

Is that an Illinois law? In NY, we have freedom of speech.

"Against league policy" is not the same as "illegal".

In fact, you usually have to break a few laws to get banned from the NBA. At least if you're on the Portland Jailblazers.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

Is that an Illinois law? In NY, we have freedom of speech.

Actually, you don't.

Having freedom of speech means that the GOVERNMENT can't prevent you from saying what you think. When you work for an organization, take the NBA for example, they can certainly take away what you refer to as freedom of speech. The NBA is NOT the government.

Question the integrity of the league. Whether you call it illegal or against policy makes no difference. They're not going to put up with it.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

Is that an Illinois law? In NY, we have freedom of speech.

Then go whine to the NYCLU - even they'll tell you that you have no case.

There is no "freedom of speech" in the United States. The concept of the 1st Amendment is simple - the Federal Government (and, later, state governments) cannot enact any laws banning certain forms of speech, unless such laws meet the Potter test.

What a private organization (in this case the NBA) chooses to do in no way shape or form comes under 1st Amendment protections.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Then go whine to the NYCLU - even they'll tell you that you have no case.

There is no "freedom of speech" in the United States. The concept of the 1st Amendment is simple - the Federal Government (and, later, state governments) cannot enact any laws banning certain forms of speech, unless such laws meet the Potter test.

What a private organization (in this case the NBA) chooses to do in no way shape or form comes under 1st Amendment protections.

Please re-read my post. I originally said you have to do something illegal to get banned from the NBA. JRut said it is illegal to criticize the NBA. I asked what law makes it illegal to criticize the NBA.

I don't consider this whining.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jimgolf


Please re-read my post. I originally said you have to do something illegal to get banned from the NBA. JRut said it is illegal to criticize the NBA. I asked what law makes it illegal to criticize the NBA.

I don't consider this whining.

The word "illegal" means against the rules. It also can mean against the law. It is illegal in the game of basketball to double dribble. It is illegal in the NBA to publicly criticize the NBA and the officials through the media.

BTW, I was using the words of a previous poster to make an opposite point. If you are going to drop in the middle of a post and start saying something, at the very least read the entire post. Or use a dictionary.

Peace

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Look them up. I am sure this is on the internet somewhere. Maybe that information is on NBA.com.

Shaq fouled out 4 times this year, in 73 games. Tim Duncan did not foul out at all, in 66 games. In contrast, Jason Collins led the league with 14 DQs in 80 games.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The word "illegal" means against the rules. It also can mean against the law. It is illegal in the game of basketball to double dribble. It is illegal in the NBA to publicly criticize the NBA and the officials through the media.

BTW, I was using the words of a previous poster to make an opposite point. If you are going to drop in the middle of a post and start saying something, at the very least read the entire post. Or use a dictionary.

Peace

To be more precise - Van Gundy will not be banned from the NBA for this outburst.

You read it here.

If he does, I like my crow fricassed.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jimgolf


To be more precise - Van Gundy will not be banned from the NBA for this outburst.

You read it here.

If he does, I like my crow fricassed.

You are right for once. He will not be banned for his outburst. He might get banned for not revealing the officials he referenced or cooperating with the investigation. He got fined mostly for not cooperating with the investigation.

Peace