AAU

[tomegun]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Almost Always Right
[B]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Mike Wilbon gave what I consider to be a perfect description of Bob Knight. On PTI yesterday, Wilbon said that Knight is a "great coach and a small, angry, vindictive man". Truer words were never spoken.

Did Wilbon do this as he perused his Billy Packer School of Commentary Completion Certificate? Does Wilbon know that Coach Knight is 6'5"? Now I am sure he used the adjective "small" in a figurative manner however, it makes him look ridiculous and invalid.
Yes I am a Bobby Knight "fan" and have been all my life. I do realize that he has done some things that he should not be proud of. He has admitted that most of things were in a moment of overreaction.
What most of you have not seen is that he took someone like ME aside at every one of his summer camps and gave them a lesson on how to study and how to be a gentleman!!
But you try to help one old lady find a seat during a game or help one reporter find his camera in Puerto Rico . . .
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I had a lot more but that is not what this thread is about. sorry.
AAR

AAR, I guess it is obvious that we are from Indiana!

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right

Yes I am a Bobby Knight "fan" and have been all my life. I do realize that he has done some things that he should not be proud of. He has admitted that most of things were in a moment of overreaction.

This is the problem. He may have a great coaching record and he may have also have taught some kids some good things BUT it is his lack of self-control that gets him in trouble. Again and again and again.

For many years Knight always looked like a red-hot kettle just ready to boil over and explode. He doesn't look that way anymore.

It's a package deal - if your eyes aren't open going in, you tend to get all facets not just the favorable ones. Experience teaches. And if your experience is getting yelled at, and publically humiliated, like the little 11 year-old girl in the original post, that's what you learn - and accept - and will teach to your kids - and other people's kids, if you're their coach. And the pain and suffering continues until someone breaks the pattern.

Screaming and hollering, yelling, public humiliation are not what I would consider intelligent correction methods - especially coming from an adult to an 11 year-old. Fear is a powerful motivator but it is not a very healthy one. And from an adult to a child, it can very easily be abusive. Adult to adult between physical equals, this method is not very successful - remember a couple of years back, the NBA player (another noted hot-head) that choked his coach. The abuse wasn't well received.

In summation, I feel that anyone that operates this way from a position of designated authority or from greater physical strength, is likely a "small, angry, vindictive" person. And vindictive is not really the explanation I would have chosen because it is not an attitude of paying someone back for what they did to you. I tend to think it is deeper than that. It is more of an attitude of lashing out at others for your own personal shortcomings or inabilities - it's that bubbling, seething calderon of anger from an unknown, or yet undiscovered, cause.

I don't feel screaming at kids builds character strength or resoluteness but rather develops yet another bubbling calderon. For those that think this is okay, I suggest you check your experience. What were you taught? What pattern are you in and what are you teaching?

Wow! That's pretty deep for a public discussion.

[WyMike]

I might add in here, from a risk management viewpoint, if an employer or supervisor were to even GET CLOSE to mimicking this type of behavior to "motivate" an employee... There would be untold tens of thousands of dollars in litigation costs as well as a substantial out-of-court settlement for the employee.

But I guess when you're "bullying" 12 year olds for "their own good and bests interests" somehow it is different - and accepted - to be treated in this manner?!?!

[drothamel]

Not quite sure how this thread got where it is, but I'll see if I can bring it back just a bit.

I don't think that Knight, Wooden, Cheyney, or Larry Brown, for that matter, are even remotely analagous to any AAU coach. First and foremost, AAU coaches are responsible for CHILDREN, literally. As in one of the orignal posts, the girl was in like 5th grade. 5th GRADE!!! I can't really think of any good reason for an adult to scream at or otherwise berate a 5th grader when it comes to athletics. Now, someone might want to make an exception for the kid's partents. College coaches are dealing with legal adults, young men and women. As a previous poster hinted upon, an adult screaming at an adult is very different from an adult screaming at a 5th grader.

I was at an AAU tournament last year (16U), where the coach was actually swearing at his players in the timeout huddle. I mean, you could hear it in the stands. If one wants to put such a high emphasis on winning and championships, part of that should be sportsmanship and decency. If the only way a coach can motivate his or her players is to swear at them or embarass them or act like a fool, then maybe he or she deserves a T; or more.

[WyMike]

Originally posted by drothamel
I was at an AAU tournament last year (16U), where the coach was actually swearing at his players in the timeout huddle. I mean, you could hear it in the stands. If one wants to put such a high emphasis on winning and championships, part of that should be sportsmanship and decency. If the only way a coach can motivate his or her players is to swear at them or embarass them or act like a fool, then maybe he or she deserves a T; or more.

Do you warn a coach whom is using profanity within his huddle first, or just go ahead and T him?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WyMike

Do you warn a coach whom is using profanity within his huddle first, or just go ahead and T him?

Just for the record, in a case like this I'm gonna nail that coach with no warning. If I can hear the swearing, and others can hear it also, then it's gonna cost the coach-- especially if it happens in the younger age groups in club ball--AAU,CYO, whatever. Jmo.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by WyMike
Once you understand the difference between abusive behavior and that of coaching and parenting, then and only then should you be allowed to be responsible for either having children, or in charge of seven or more children of other parents.

Couldn't agree more. I had a rec game with two 7th grade girls teams. This is a recreational, not competitive, league. One of the coaches started yelling at his daughter really bad. During a timeout, he was screaming at her in the huddle. I went over to him and told him to stop. He said she was his daughter and he would talk to her any way he wanted.

I told him that on this day, in this gym, during this game, he was a coach and she was a player in our program and we did not allow this kind of behavior - period. He started to give me an arguement and I tossed him. He was suspended for the season and removed from the Board of Directors.

[PGCougar]

There are two basic methods of coaching. Coaching for instruction and coaching for performance. At the youngest age groups it needs to be entirely the former and as you move up the continuum, you shift emphasis towards performance.

But watching lots of High School and AAU games, it appears to me that there ought to be lots more empahsis on coaching for instruction and a lot less coaching for performance. The story about the 5th grade girl crying made me want to puke. Give me a break, the kid is 10!!!

Problem is that most AAU and HS coaches watch college level coaches. Now if Bobby Knight wants to rip into a player because he made a bad pass, I can understand it at that level. He is yelling at a kid who has played hoops at a high level most of his life and is getting serious money from the college and should have known better by now. I can understand a little bit of this "performance yelling" taking place at the High School level, but let's face it, most players in High School have a lot to learn about the game. But.. That's not the same thing as a 11 year old kid deciding (and it's probably the kid's parent deciding) that they are going to step up to a more competitive level.

So no, I don't buy into the argument that good coaches have to yell at their kids to get them to step up. Most of those coaches are mimicking a style that isn't effective at the level they're coaching.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by tomegun
I think it depends on the make-up and talent of your child. First of all, it isn't Coach Knight's job to give someone's child values.

First of all, being abused or not has nothing to do with the make-up and talent of the child.

Second of all, I'm not talking about instilling values. I'm talking about kicking one's players; cursing out one's players; choking one's players.

I would not, under any circumstances, put my child in that person's care for four years. Period. Lots of people do. I personally think that's a mistake.

Knight said (yesterday) that today's players do not have the fundamentals that they used to. Add to that the lower moral standards.

What do those things have to do with what is reasonable behavior by an educator toward a student?

AND, they graduate which is the best most college players could hope to ever do.

I disagree. I think they could reasonably hope to graduate without suffering verbal, physical and mental abuse. But that's just me, I guess.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right

Did Wilbon do this as he perused his Billy Packer School of Commentary Completion Certificate? Does Wilbon know that Coach Knight is 6'5"?

Is that a joke? Seriously. Is that a joke? Because if it's not, it's the saddest attempt at defending a person I've ever seen. Knight is a small person, with petty grudges and childish behavior. Only a fan who didn't want to look at the truth would make a comment such as yours.

[tomegun]

Chuck it seems like you are making some statements that are absolute. I would think it appropriate to add "IMO." Afterall, that is your opinion. Different strokes for different folks. The mental make-up of the kid or young man DOES matter. I'm an example of someone that wouldn't get all shook up because of something Bobby Knight said to me. Discipline has been instilled in me as well as various situations that have caused me to develop a thick skin. What level of excellence can Coach Knight set for me that is higher than the one I set for myself? This subject will show my bias due to the fact that I'm from Indiana. I love this game, love Indiana basketball and Coach Knight is the man! IMO, of course.

[Nevadaref]

Wilbon also acknowledged that Knight has done some wonderful things for charity and that he personally has been invovled with him in a couple of those endeavors.

He added that the person Coach Knight is a contradiction (or something like that).

So he has his good and his bad.

[tyopsguy45]

In Colorado, I don't see much AAU ball. I just work the All state game for girls this past sunday. What kick that was. I was evaluated by a college official which just made it htat much better.

I would love to do more big games like that. Not saying you call much during an all star game. You had the best players for each classification and it was awesome to watch them play

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Wilbon also acknowledged that Knight has done some wonderful things for charity and that he personally has been invovled with him in a couple of those endeavors.

He added that the person Coach Knight is a contradiction (or something like that).

So he has his good and his bad.

I also acknowledged that, Nevada. My Wilbon quote started with "Knight's a great coach. . ."

He did say "He's a walking contradiction." I don't deny that as a coach he does great things and gets great results. I just differ from a lot of people in thinking that those coaching results don't excuse the other reprehensible behavior.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, I've hijacked this thread, although unintentionally. So this is my last post (in this thread) about Knight.

Originally posted by tomegun
Chuck it seems like you are making some statements that are absolute. I would think it appropriate to add "IMO." Afterall, that is your opinion.

I did say "Personally, I think that's a mistake".

The mental make-up of the kid or young man DOES matter.

Of course it matters in lots of ways. But it is absolutely irrelevant to the question of whether he should be mentally, physically or verbally abused. No student should be subject to being choked or kicked; or having to look at dirty toilet paper from his coach's butt. I'm pretty sure that every psychologist worth his/her salt would agree with that. IMO.

This subject will show my bias due to the fact that I'm from Indiana. I love this game, love Indiana basketball and Coach Knight is the man! IMO, of course.

And that, with all respect (and I mean that absolutely sincerely), is the problem. Anyone who can look at the question from the outside can see the outrageousness of his actions.

As I said, I've beaten this horse long enough. I'll stay off the subject now.