Worst. Technical. Ever.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

let me describe a similar situation with a speeding ticket.
How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket and warranted, yet you tried to get out of it by making some excuse. Maybe the police officer listened to your excuse and maybe not. Some of us may have gotten away without a ticket. The officer looks at your DMV records to which they have access to. So if you were a repeated speeder you got a ticket. Same goes for this player. If this player was a kid that was known to be a repeated offender than he diserved it. This may have been his first offense.

Sooooooo......

If a kid who has never said "boo" out on the floor all of a sudden decides to tell you to "phuk off", you'd let him slide because it's his first time?

Great logic......

Keeping track of who's been naughty and who's been nice is Santa Claus' job, not ours.

Just call the game and quit over-thinking it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Huh???



Guys, I'm confused now. Have you seen the POEs for 2006-07? I just checked the nfhs website and only the topics are listed. There are no details given. Specifically, it has the following enumerated:
1. Concussions
2. Uniforms
3. Time-outs
4. Intentional Fouls
5. Rule Enforcement/Proper Signal Use

I can't find anything else about the new POEs. Did I miss something?
The post which I made earlier in this thread is from LAST season's POEs (2005-06).

Nevada - check the date of the original post. This is a reserrected thread. The OP was made during the '04-'05 season.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

In the PIAA game, the player cursed at the official. That's the absolute that everybody has been responding to. Where do you stand now? Is that an absolute "T" or not?

I wasn't at that game and my post had nothing to do with that game. But, yeah, if a player curses at me, my response is a 'T'.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sooooooo......

If a kid who has never said "boo" out on the floor all of a sudden decides to tell you to "phuk off", you'd let him slide because it's his first time?

What if the kid is Vietnamese? I think "phuck off" in Vietnamese means...err....never mind.

And 1 other thing JR - what if the kid sez "boo" followed by "sheet". What ya gonna do then, eh tough guy?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

And 1 other thing JR - what if the kid sez "boo" followed by "sheet". What ya gonna do then, eh tough guy?

If it's his first time, I'll try to be gentle.

[Ref_ Fred]

I indicated yesterday, that if a player coach says any foul language to an official, player or fan. Its with no doubt a technical foul... If he is frustrated at himself for commiting an stupid error, I will state it again. I will look at the whole situation. And Please I am making my remarks based on the very first posting which does not indicate that any foul language was used. Below is the exzct quote, no mention of foul language.


Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

I indicated yesterday, that if a player coach says any foul language to an official, player or fan. Its with no doubt a technical foul... If he is frustrated at himself for commiting an stupid error, I will state it again. I will look at the whole situation. And Please I am making my remarks based on the very first posting which does not indicate that any foul language was used.

In the context of when the original post was made, this was good discussion about whether or not this should be a T. However, in the context of current NF rules, it's a no-brainer: automatic T. To say you would have to "look at what is going on in the game" is screwing the other team out of a penalty. It's right there in black and white. Now, we can discuss all day whether or not we think it's over-officious. But there's no discussion as to whether or not it should be called.

[Ref_ Fred]

You are 150% correct. Black and white states that....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

You are 150% correct.

Dang it, I'm slipping. I thought I was 163% correct.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by BLydic

The 2003 state basketball championships debuting at the new GIANT Center will be remembered for an ugly incident that took place in the Boys Class AA final. A bench-clearing brawl erupted in the second quarter between Sto-Rox and Camp Hill Trinity. Apparently, the fight began when Sto-Rox junior John Geiger was about to inbound the basketball in front of the Trinity bench. Geiger claims he was grabbed by one of the players sitting on the bench. He then turned around and punched Shamrocks reserve Matt Wesner, starting the melee, which included fans coming onto the floor from the stands. Geiger was tossed from the game. Later in the contest, teammate Davon Huger was ejected for swinging at a Shamrocks player. Camp Hill Trinity won the game 66-49.

Damn Coach, you're 0 for 2.

A Pennsylvania Coach, consider the source.

Geiger wasn't in the brawl. His actions started things, but he was off to the side the whole time. I was at the game.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend.

The last sentence is your bail out right? "... right call you can defend." It is either the right call or it isn't according to the previous "don't want to be deciding the outcome crap." You must work at Burger King, where you can have it your way, or is that both ways?

Surely, most of us remember the official working the ACC tournament that called a T on the NCState (?) bench for the water clean up at the end of a time out. Sure, its in the rules, and the official enforced it, which you are advocating. He could even defend it and did so. Well, the ACC assignor yanked the official out of the tournament and publically stated that he should have used better judgment.

Using the reasoning that many have expressed on this topic, the T should have been called and it should have been supported, when the fact remains that it was not the right call, at the right time, in the right place. T'ing a player for pulling out their jersey in this situation is not high on my list either.

For those officials that would support the T for untucking the jersey, did you T players every time they left the court (prior to the rules change)? More than likely you used your best judgment rather than strictly enforcing the NFHS rulebook. If you did, or did not, you helped decide the outcome of the game. The difference is not that extreme.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Geiger wasn't in the brawl. His actions started things, but he was off to the side the whole time. I was at the game.

Coach,

Your response is classic. He wasn't in the brawl, his actions (just a punch) started things. WOW!

In your original post regarding how much of a JOKE the PIAA is, you stated that a full out brawl took place without an ejection. You were wrong, Geiger was removed from the game, no? His being in front of the opposing teams bench is a key point in how this fiasco started, right? Would your suggestion be to just leave things as they were? No, I got it, we can just rely on the coaches to keep their bench under control?

In our chapter meetings and clinics we have discussed this direction from the PIAA because we feel that, at times, teams can be put at a disadvantage as a result of moving the throw-in spot. We are trying to ensure this is held to a minimum.

But, it was the actions of two opposing players that caused this reaction from the PIAA and in combination with some game time common sense, the problem has been eliminated. Granted, it might not be the best way, but I don't have any other suggestions. Do you?

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend.

Rich, I also disagree with you here. As officials, although we strive to be consistent, must be mindful of the situation in the game. In terms of fouls and violations on the court, we must call it the same way 3 minutes in and with 3 seconds to go, but with technicals, it's different because our reasoning for calling technicals is largely dependant on circumstance. Now there are no brainer Ts that we get all the time, but others are more subjective.

As an example, earlier in the game, technical fouls can be used to help maintain control of the game. Ignoring something or letting something go early, such as a frustrated player popping off/slamming the floor, pulling out his jersey, etc, could easily lead to a loss of control of the game, and rightly should be penalized. With 3 seconds left in the game, we've already established the level of control for the night, and given the point in the game, the impact is far more punitive.

I think the question to be asked is, why do we call technicals, and what is their purpose within the game? Since in my mind they are a tool to improve/control the game, to me they are dependant on circumstance, which means a T early in the game, if not one of the "automatics" may not be a T later on.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Nevada, I understand where you're coming from. My point originally was that this is a terrible POE because it advocates officials being overly officious and can put us in situations where we might be forced to call a technical which does nothing to help the game and, in fact could really hurt the game. Overly officious POEs have been, in my opinion, a disturbing trend in NFHS over the last several years. For instance the POE last year on flopping, and the one to call Ts for running off the court (before the rule change to violation). Why Fed wants more Ts and trusts the judgement of officials less is beyond me, but in the real world, calling these things can often put game officials on an island. The new uniform regulations are yet another example of those in the Fed office making it tougher on us to do our jobs.

That being said, as an official, do I deliberately disobey what the NFHS says and go by my own rules? No, I call the game as I am instructed to by my assignors. Does that mean I have to like what I'm told to do and the new rules? No, but I'm an official, not an assignor, and not on the rules committee, so I call the game the way my superiors want it called. Doesn't mean I have to agree though with everything that comes down from the higher ups.

One other point, much of officiating has to deal with the spirit and intent of rules, as you well know. Rulebook officials often get in all sorts of trouble with players and coaches and routinely manage to lose control of games (at least those who I've seen). It seems like with the POEs, the rules committee wants us all to move in the direction of being rulebook officials, which I strongly disagree with.

Whatever your opinion of the POEs just remember that the game belongs to the NFHS and they can do whatever they wish with it. If that means putting in strict rules on behavior which you consider terrible and overly officious, that's the way it goes.
It seems to me that the NFHS is attempting to keep the high school game from degenerating into streetball or the NBA and I support it.
As for enforcing these POEs, I just tell the coaches and players that this is HS basketball and you can't do that here. Summer leagues, camps, college ball, etc. is different. Like any other change, they are difficult at first, but after a couple of seasons everyone comes to understand what is unacceptable and stops doing it. The key is that you have to have consistent enforcement by the officials, coaches, and administrators in your area. That is the tough part.

So, what to your "higher ups" tell you to do? For example, what were your instructions on handling the coaching box and the untucked jerseys last season?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Nevada - check the date of the original post. This is a reserrected thread. The OP was made during the '04-'05 season.

Okay, missed that. Actually, I never even thought to check. Of course, my opinion is that this action (pulling out the shirt in an unsporting gesture) still fell within the purview of the rule in force at the time that game was played (10-3-7). It just wasn't delineated quite so clearly in a POE yet, but as you well know, the POEs don't change the rules, they merely stress certain parts of them.