Question - Offensive Hooking - Whats the call?

[bradfordwilkins]

A1 is dribbling on offense with his back to B1. He reaches his non-dribblign hand around and hooks B1, pushing off and locking off a path to the basket.

I've got a foul on A1, but is this a player control? Or a push? The reason I'm curious is what happens if its a bonus situation. Player control they wouldn't shoot. A push they would.



Also a funny note on player control fouls, in one of my games today had A1 jump right into a defender who was not only in legal guarding position but also completely set in their spot way before take-off. Easy player control call. A1 comes down the court yelling at me that B1 didn't fall down. I couldn't help but laugh and bite with the question - What does that have to do with anything? He let me know that I can't call a charge unless the guy falls down. I smile and let him know I've never heard that rule, but its irrelevant because I called a player control foul, not a charge .

[tjones1]

I've got a PC -- no throws

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
A1 is dribbling on offense with his back to B1. He reaches his non-dribblign hand around and hooks B1, pushing off and locking off a path to the basket.

I've got a foul on A1, but is this a player control? Or a push? The reason I'm curious is what happens if its a bonus situation. Player control they wouldn't shoot. A push they would.

Anytime a foul is committed by a player in control of the ball, it is a PC foul. It is just that simple. Now if they have passed off the ball then foul you just have a common foul. If a player has shot the ball, they are still can commit a PC foul until they come back to the floor (by rule).

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Also a funny note on player control fouls, in one of my games today had A1 jump right into a defender who was not only in legal guarding position but also completely set in their spot way before take-off. Easy player control call. A1 comes down the court yelling at me that B1 didn't fall down. I couldn't help but laugh and bite with the question - What does that have to do with anything? He let me know that I can't call a charge unless the guy falls down. I smile and let him know I've never heard that rule, but its irrelevant because I called a player control foul, not a charge .

I would not say a player needs to fall, but I would like to see some kind of advantage from the contact before I make a call. But that does not mean that did not take place in your game.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
A1 is dribbling on offense with his back to B1. He reaches his non-dribblign hand around and hooks B1, pushing off and locking off a path to the basket.

I've got a foul on A1, but is this a player control? Or a push? The reason I'm curious is what happens if its a bonus situation. Player control they wouldn't shoot. A push they would.

If a player with the ball fouls, it's a player control foul.

There are exceptions, like double fouls and intentional fouls but 99% of the time, it's a PC.

[Junker]

I have to agree with everyone else. One thing I do is after I report it as PC, I give the coach a "hook" sign (I know it's not a regular mechanic) just to communicate what happened.

[lrpalmer3]

"Player control" is one of the misunderstood terms of officiating. Many fans think that we are saying that the offensive player was "out of control" or wild. Heck, I'm an informed basketball fan and I thought this until I took the class.

[SmokeEater]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
A1 is dribbling on offense with his back to B1. He reaches his non-dribblign hand around and hooks B1, pushing off and locking off a path to the basket.

I've got a foul on A1, but is this a player control? Or a push? The reason I'm curious is what happens if its a bonus situation. Player control they wouldn't shoot. A push they would.

I'm interested as to why you say the push would not be PC as well. AS I have understood either way the player is in control of the ball when the offence occurs so its PC - no shots.

[Boiler14]

We know the "hook" is not a proper mechanic. So what would it be? I say it is a hold because that is what A1 is doing. He is holding B1 in place so that he can get around him.

I don't think there is another "authorized" mechanic available.

At the table you have PC on A1 with the hold (and of course, no free throws EVER). That is how I see it anyway.

I do wish there was a mechnic for this because it happens often enough to warrant having one.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Easy player control call. A1 comes down the court yelling at me that B1 didn't fall down. ......... He let me know that I can't call a charge unless the guy falls down.

I think that this is a very common misconception. Last year I had a PC call in a boys 8th grade game. B1 was retreating and A1 put his shoulder in B1's chest and bulldozed him backward. I thought it was a fairly easy call, but it could have possibly been a no call. The kid's
dad was videoing the game and told me later (in a nice way)
"That was a bad call on my son. The guy didn't fall down or anything."

[Junker]

As far as an official mechanic, you have to go PC since that is what the foul actually is. If you go with hold, people are going to wonder why you're not shooting free throws. That's why I go PC to the table and then do the hook to explain to the coach.

[Boiler14]

When I have a PC foul I do the PC signal and the infraction. Usually it is a "push" for charging. However, it this case it would be holding. I've seen it done both ways...only the PC foul signal and the PC signal with an additional explanation.

I guess I've never been told or had discussions that you should only give one signal...something for me to inquire about.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Boiler14
I guess I've never been told or had discussions that you should only give one signal...something for me to inquire about.

You should always give only one approved signal..and keep it the same throughout too. For example, you don't want as your prelim. signal to give a hold, and then go to the table and give a push. If I'm a coach, good chance you're gonna be whacking me after that. I think the same concept applies here...don't give a PC signal and then say it was a hold too. I agree that coaches will be wondering then why shots aren't awarded.

I also agree w/ Junker though that a "hook" sign is appropriate, especially if you had to "sell" the call. But, since you're going to stay table side anyways, if the coach questions, just a simple "Coach, he hooked him and gained an advantage" comment should (I say that lightly) be enough.

[Boiler14]

No...they are getting both PC and other signal. I'm not one that switches when I get to the bench. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. No problem.

What I was saying is I've not had discussion before over giving:

a) PC signal only
b) PC signal AND another signal signifying what the player did.

[Mark Padgett]

There was some offensive hooking going on near my house. There was a lot of "reaches" and "over the backs" going on. Somebody called the police and they told the offender to move to a different corner.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
There was some offensive hooking going on near my house. There was a lot of "reaches" and "over the backs" going on. Somebody called the police and they told the offender to move to a different corner.

I don't think the signal for that is an approved mechanic...

I've always been taught to stick to the "approved" mechanics only, whether H.S. or college. It looks better if everyone is on the same page, using the same signals. That said, if we need to communicate more info after the fact, we could do that. So, in this instance, the PC signal is the only one to give, both at the spot and at the table. Now, if the coach has a strange look on his face (and what coach doesn't ), you could give more info by explaining it to him when convenient, or by giving him the hooking signal if you can't get to him.