big guys

[stretch]

Just an observation on high school: Player A is 6'10". Opposing center B is 6'4". Center B gets low and bumps A off the post and hits him low on shots. This is ignored or missed often. 6"10" player A commits equal or lesser contact than B. Player A invariably gets called. I've had three division 1A college coaches ask "why"? They contend there are two sets of rules re: contact; one for small guys, and another for the tall guys, meaning the tall guy rarely gets away with anything. Is it just that the tall guy is getting watched more closely? I'm spending more time as an observer, and I'm not sure even the principle of verticality is applied fairly to tall guys. Hate to say it, but I think the college coaches are correct. We're seeing a lot more very tall players in high school. Are all officials at the high school level prepared? These tall guys do make for a different kind of game.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by stretch
Just an observation on high school: Player A is 6'10". Opposing center B is 6'4". Center B gets low and bumps A off the post and hits him low on shots. This is ignored or missed often. 6"10" player A commits equal or lesser contact than B. Player A invariably gets called. I've had three division 1A college coaches ask "why"? They contend there are two sets of rules re: contact; one for small guys, and another for the tall guys, meaning the tall guy rarely gets away with anything. Is it just that the tall guy is getting watched more closely? I'm spending more time as an observer, and I'm not sure even the principle of verticality is applied fairly to tall guys. Hate to say it, but I think the college coaches are correct. We're seeing a lot more very tall players in high school. Are all officials at the high school level prepared? These tall guys do make for a different kind of game.

Amount of contact doesn't determine legality or illegality of a play. If two players are the same size and they both jump more or less straight up and there's contact from the tip of the fingers to the tips of the toes, there's still no foul.

What I hear you saying is that the smaller player is displacing the taller one, and doing it dangerously in the case of "hitting low on shots". If the taller player is getting more contact, but not moving the smaller player, he's not committing a foul.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by stretch
This is ignored or missed often.

Thanks for letting us know. It'll help all of us in our D1 games

They contend there are two sets of rules re: contact; one for small guys, and another for the tall guys, meaning the tall guy rarely gets away with anything.

Shhhhhh! You're not supposed to let people know that!!! It's bad enough that we have to remember the two sets of rules, but they also make us pay for the extra rulebook!! Can you believe that?!?!

I'm not sure even the principle of verticality is applied fairly to tall guys.

Stop giving away our secrets!! The short refs are all very jealous of the tall players, so we take it out on them by intentionally cheating against them.

Hate to say it, but I think the college coaches are correct.

They are correct. All those D1 refs suck!! How do you think they got those games in the first place? B/c they work for short assignors who want to stick it to the big guys.

If you "hate to say it", then don't. It just shows how little you know about officiating. Now shoo.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Thanks for letting us know. It'll help all of us in our D1 games

Shhhhhh! You're not supposed to let people know that!!! It's bad enough that we have to remember the two sets of rules, but they also make us pay for the extra rulebook!! Can you believe that?!?!

Stop giving away our secrets!! The short refs are all very jealous of the tall players, so we take it out on them by intentionally cheating against them.

They are correct. All those D1 refs suck!! How do you think they got those games in the first place? B/c they work for short assignors who want to stick it to the big guys.

If you "hate to say it", then don't. It just shows how little you know about officiating. Now shoo.

Welcome back Chuck!!!!!!

[stretch]

OK, Rainmaker is making sense on all parts. I like his approach. If both go "more-or-less" straight up, but there is a distinct difference in heigth, do we apply the same logic? By the book, yes. In application, I'm not so sure. That's really all I was trying to get across to Chuck. Perhaps when it's crowded, it's a little harder to look both up and down? Trust me, I'm a lot harder on myself. Allow a guy who is just learning a little wisom of the ages rather than tell him he know nothing.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by stretch
Just an observation on high school: Player A is 6'10". Opposing center B is 6'4". Center B gets low and bumps A off the post and hits him low on shots. This is ignored or missed often. 6"10" player A commits equal or lesser contact than B. Player A invariably gets called. I've had three division 1A college coaches ask "why"? They contend there are two sets of rules re: contact; one for small guys, and another for the tall guys, meaning the tall guy rarely gets away with anything. Is it just that the tall guy is getting watched more closely? I'm spending more time as an observer, and I'm not sure even the principle of verticality is applied fairly to tall guys. Hate to say it, but I think the college coaches are correct. We're seeing a lot more very tall players in high school. Are all officials at the high school level prepared? These tall guys do make for a different kind of game.

You are so right. It was so much easier to officiate ten years ago when the center on each boys team was only 4-feet tall. The fact that the average player has grown three feet in the past decade has really screwed me up.

I'm sure we can find several D-1 coaches who think that the tall guys get away with everything and that the officials are punishing their small guys. Coincidentally, it would probably be coaches of teams that didn't have a real tall center.

Z

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by stretch
OK, Rainmaker is making sense on all parts. I like his approach. If both go "more-or-less" straight up, but there is a distinct difference in heigth, do we apply the same logic? By the book, yes. In application, I'm not so sure. That's really all I was trying to get across to Chuck. Perhaps when it's crowded, it's a little harder to look both up and down? Trust me, I'm a lot harder on myself. Allow a guy who is just learning a little wisom of the ages rather than tell him he know nothing.

Just for the record, rainmaker is female. I've done a certain amount of boys, though, and I know the kind of difficulty you're talking about. In general, it a''ears to me that the tall player gets away with less, because it's easier for him (or her) to displace the smaller player, and that kind of contact is more apparent to the ref. I bet, though, if you go back and watch some D1 ball with this new thinking in mind, you'll see that I'm right about displacement. Especially if you look at the play from the same angle as the ref. Being short is certainly not illegal, but it does make basketball more difficult.

[stretch]

Thanks, Rainmaker. Sorry about not knowing the gender. I really want to be consistent with calls, without regard to size, and not force a team's dominant player out of the game in the first few minutes. I've done it, it really affected the game, and in retrospect, it was wrong to focus on that one player. It's just really easy to see them. I've watched tapes of my own games and watched a lot of others. I am not the only one making that mistake. Those D1's were talking about high school and making a general observation. My "general" observation from sitting back and watching a lot this past summer is that it's an observation that may merit some introspection, at least at the high school level. I'll not bother the "more experienced" anymore.

[Snake~eyes]

LOL @ Chuck, can't believe he's giving away our trade secrets.

[Red_Killian]

I think if taller players know how to play good, straight up (within their vertical space) defense they make it very difficult for shorter players to take their normal shots. And yes, they can even go out of their vertical space and block shots w/o contact and w/o fouling. Sure, I pay attention to post play, whatever the matchup is size wise, and call fouls based on the actions of the offense/defense. I don't allow smaller players to push/displace taller players or the other way around. Bottom line is the size/strength of players should not be a factor, look for advantage/disadvantage either way.

[FrankHtown]

If a tall player gets a rebound over a shorter player, I'd be rich if I got a dollar for every "Over the back" yell I hear, whether there is illegal contact or not.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by stretch
Allow a guy who is just learning a little wisom of the ages rather than tell him he know nothing.

Ok, Stretch. Maybe we got off on the wrong foot. Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion about you. IF you're here to learn, then you will be welcomed and you really will learn a lot.

However, when you're just introducing yourself to the group you should probably refrain from comments like:

This is ignored or missed often.

there are two sets of rules re: contact; one for small guys, and another for the tall guys,

I'm not sure even the principle of verticality is applied fairly to tall guys.

Hate to say it, but I think the college coaches are correct.

These comments imply strongly that a lot of officials -- even at the D1 level -- are either incompetant or outright cheating (based on your comment about rules being applied "fairly"). This type of comment will not be received very well by a community of officials, as you might imagine.

As I said, if you're here to learn, then keep posting. But keep in mind the people to whom you're directing your comments.