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Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 03:15pm
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I know, I know. After simultaneous fouls, you go to the arrow. But how about. . .

A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting. At the same time, B2 is fouled by A2. So we have simultaneous fouls, but one of them was committed against a shooter.

So it seems that there are some options:

1) No free throws, just go to the arrow.
2) Shoot 2 FTs with nobody on the lane and then go to the arrow.
3) Shoot 2 FTs with players on the lane and continue as after any normal FT.

I think #3 is right out, even though that's what actually happened in the game that I heard about (about 15th-hand). So the question is, is A1 allowed to shoot FTs for being fouled in the act of shooting if his teammate commits a foul at the same time?


How about this twist. A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting. At the same time, A2 and B2 foul each other. How do we administer that one? Seems like the same options apply.
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Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I know, I know. After simultaneous fouls, you go to the arrow. But how about. . .

A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting. At the same time, B2 is fouled by A2. So we have simultaneous fouls, but one of them was committed against a shooter.

So it seems that there are some options:

1) No free throws, just go to the arrow.
2) Shoot 2 FTs with nobody on the lane and then go to the arrow.
3) Shoot 2 FTs with players on the lane and continue as after any normal FT.

I think #3 is right out, even though that's what actually happened in the game that I heard about (about 15th-hand). So the question is, is A1 allowed to shoot FTs for being fouled in the act of shooting if his teammate commits a foul at the same time?


How about this twist. A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting. At the same time, A2 and B2 foul each other. How do we administer that one? Seems like the same options apply.
I don't see why this is treated any differently than a double foul, with one of the fouls being on the shooter. Treat as in 4.19.7C

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Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:31pm
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Sounds sorta like a false double foul to me. B1 and A2 are assessed a personal, the ball becomes dead when A2 fouled B2, so A1's shot cannot count, and A1 is shooting two, with no resumption of play procedure in effect.
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Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:44pm
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If these are simultaneous, as stated, you can't have a false double. Simultaneous foul. (4-19-9) No free throws, alternating possession. (Go to page 67 1-d under "Summary of Penalties for All Fouls.")
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Old Mon Feb 07, 2005, 10:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpeedyGonGoalie
Sounds sorta like a false double foul to me. B1 and A2 are assessed a personal, the ball becomes dead when A2 fouled B2, so A1's shot cannot count, and A1 is shooting two, with no resumption of play procedure in effect.
A1's shot can count if it was released before A2 fouled B2, the ball is not dead on any foul during a try except a foul by an airborne shooter.
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 12:51am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by SpeedyGonGoalie
Sounds sorta like a false double foul to me. B1 and A2 are assessed a personal, the ball becomes dead when A2 fouled B2, so A1's shot cannot count, and A1 is shooting two, with no resumption of play procedure in effect.
A1's shot can count if it was released before A2 fouled B2, the ball is not dead on any foul during a try except a foul by an airborne shooter.
B1's foul against A1 would have to also be after the shot was released, otherwise this would be a false simultaneous foul, right?
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 08:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by SpeedyGonGoalie
Sounds sorta like a false double foul to me. B1 and A2 are assessed a personal, the ball becomes dead when A2 fouled B2, so A1's shot cannot count, and A1 is shooting two, with no resumption of play procedure in effect.
A1's shot can count if it was released before A2 fouled B2, the ball is not dead on any foul during a try except a foul by an airborne shooter.
B1's foul against A1 would have to also be after the shot was released, otherwise this would be a false simultaneous foul, right?
There can't be a "false simultaneous" foul. That would be an oxymoron. "False" fouls are those where one is a live-ball and the other after the whistle. A simultaneous foul is one by opponents "which occurs at approximately the same time." (4-19-9)
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 08:54am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
I don't see why this is treated any differently than a double foul, with one of the fouls being on the shooter. Treat as in 4.19.7C
I would have to agree. From a principle standpoint, it's the same thing. Fouls occurring at the same time, with one committed by each team.


Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
B1's foul against A1 would have to also be after the shot was released, otherwise this would be a false simultaneous foul, right?
There's no such animal, Juules.

No offense to speedy by we continue to see comments such as, "...the ball becomes dead when A2 fouled B2, so A1's shot cannot count,..." Probably read it 10 times in the past 2 months. We have Fund. 13, which says,

"A live-ball foul by the offense (team in control or last in control if the ball is loose), or the expiration of time for a quarter or extra period, causes the ball to become dead immediately, unless the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. The ball also becomes dead when a player-control foul occurs."

Seems to me that either a new Fund. or an addition to #13 should read,

"No foul causes a shot in flight to become a dead ball, except a player control foul."
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
B1's foul against A1 would have to also be after the shot was released, otherwise this would be a false simultaneous foul, right?
There's no such animal, Juules.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I forgot the smilie. Can't get the hang of those little guys.
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
I don't see why this is treated any differently than a double foul, with one of the fouls being on the shooter. Treat as in 4.19.7C
Ok, I think I agree. But in the case play, the ball is already released. What if the ball is still in the player's hand at the time of the fouls? (This is what happened in the actual play. I should've been clearer.) Does A1 still get 2 FTs for being fouled in the act of shooting? If so, does the ball remain in play after the second FT?
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
I don't see why this is treated any differently than a double foul, with one of the fouls being on the shooter. Treat as in 4.19.7C
Ok, I think I agree. But in the case play, the ball is already released. What if the ball is still in the player's hand at the time of the fouls? (This is what happened in the actual play. I should've been clearer.) Does A1 still get 2 FTs for being fouled in the act of shooting? If so, does the ball remain in play after the second FT?
No FTs for any simultaneous foul. Ever. It doesn't matter if one of them is committed on a shooter or intentional or flagrant. No FTs.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
What if the ball is still in the player's hand at the time of the fouls? (This is what happened in the actual play. I should've been clearer.) Does A1 still get 2 FTs for being fouled in the act of shooting? If so, does the ball remain in play after the second FT?
No FTs. No continuation. Go to the arrow.
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