T for no DQ'd replacement

[RookieDude]

Had an early game Saturday afternoon...so I was able to go watch an evening game.

I was sitting with a couple of good officials who do girl's games only.
Well, one of the official's daughter is the coach for one of the teams we are watching. (1st game before Boys Varsity)

Now I have a soda bet with the coach's dad. Here's why:

4th quarter...5th foul on player A1.
Official reports foul and is told by the scorekeeper A1 has 5 fouls.
Official notifys coach and tells the timer to start the 30 second count.
At the end of the 30 seconds the official tells Coach A that there will be a technical foul since he did not have a sub checked in for the DQ'd player. (This is during a game that is very close with less than 2 minutes remaining.)

I suggested that the official could have just asked the coach to have the player report and get on with the game.
The official in the stands (Father of Coach B, who benefited from the call) said, "NO WAY, there is a rule that the sub has to check in before the 30 seconds is up"...he went on to say that there is a warning horn before the 30 seconds is up, and the sub has to be checked in before that. He was adamant about the warning horn for a DQ.
I told him he is correct as far as a TO goes...but to my knowledge there was no warning horn required for DQ's. He said, "Oh yes there is".
This official is not in the boy's association, they are separate associations around here...so I thought I would offer him a wager as to who was right...the guy's side or his girl's side interpretation.

Who drinks the soda for free?

[Nevadaref]

There is NOW a warning horn on the 30 second replacement period. The substitute must report before the end of the 30 seconds, not before the 20 second warning horn though.
This was an NFHS rule change before the 2003-04 season.
2-12-5
. . . Sound a warning signal at 20 seconds of the 30 seconds (maximum) permitted for replacing a disqualified or injured player, or for a player directed to leave the game.

I'd say you're buying.


I'll also add that the DQ replacement was a POE that year. POE #5 does a great job detailing the finer points of handling that aspect of the game. It is quite long and there is NO WAY that I am going to type it all out. Perhaps someone else has an electronic copy and could cut and paste it.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 6th, 2005 at 06:59 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

At the end of the 30 seconds the official tells Coach A that there will be a technical foul since he did not have a sub checked in for the DQ'd player.

I suggested that the official could have just asked the coach to have the player report and get on with the game.
The official in the stands (Father of Coach B, who benefited from the call) said, "NO WAY, there is a rule that the sub has to check in before the 30 seconds is up"...he went on to say that there is a warning horn before the 30 seconds is up, and the sub has to be checked in before that. He was adamant about the warning horn for a DQ.
I told him he is correct as far as a TO goes...but to my knowledge there was no warning horn required for DQ's. He said, "Oh yes there is".

As Nevada said, there is a warning horn at the 20-second mark by rule if the replacement hasn't reported by then. That horn is to let the coach know that he's got 10 seconds left to get a sub in. The coach that you were sitting with did have one part of the rule wrong though. The sub has to be at the table to be beckoned in by the 30-second mark, not before it. If the sub isn't at the table at the thirty-second mark, It's a direct "T" charged to the head coach under R10-5-1(d).

[Jay R]

I agree with one thing you said Rookie Dude, with preventative officiating the official could have gone to the coach before the end of the 30 seconds and said "Coach, we need a sub". I have done that in the past.

[zebraman]

You are buying RookieDude, but I bet some good preventative officiating could have got the sub there in time.

Since the official knew the rule, he/she should have asked for the warning horn ("scorekeeper, please give me 30 seconds for a replacement and a horn at 20") and then told the coach, "you have 10 seconds to get a player in or it's a T." In a close game, I'm betting that the coach would have got the sub there in time if the coach knew the consequences.

Z

[Rich]

Originally posted by zebraman
You are buying RookieDude, but I bet some good preventative officiating could have got the sub there in time.

Since the official knew the rule, he/she should have asked for the warning horn ("scorekeeper, please give me 30 seconds for a replacement and a horn at 20") and then told the coach, "you have 10 seconds to get a player in or it's a T." In a close game, I'm betting that the coach would have got the sub there in time if the coach knew the consequences.

Z

In my pregame with the timer at EVERY game this season where I am the R I've explained the new DQ procedure -- notify the coach, start the clock, notify the player. I also emphasize the 20 second warning horn in this situation. And I haven't had anyone foul out since my second game of the season.

[RookieDude]

Hey guys...thanks! Looks like I will be buying...but, it will be worth it. We now know the proper procedure by rule. (Thanks Nevada for the exact rule reference) I watched both games...there were about 5 DQ's total...never once did the timekeeper sound a warning horn at 20. In fact, we haven't been doing that around these parts...so thanks, I'll have something to bring up at our meeting Monday night.

We can clear up what the other official thought also...he thought it was like a TO, with the sub required to check in before the horn at 20.

You know, as I type this...I can vaguely remember doing this a couple years back. I must have filed it back and forgotten it in my old age. Less time on the computer and more time rule reviewing next week!

Having said all of that...as others have stated...I'm going to the bench and reminding the coach to get me a sub.
That was a tough T last night...especially with no warning horn for the coach...and that team eventually lost a close game.

[Ref Daddy]

SECTION 12 TIMER'S DUTIES
The timer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Note when each half is to start and shall notify the referee more than three minutes before this time so the referee may notify the teams, or cause them to be notified, at least three minutes before the half is to start.
ART. 2 . . . Signal the scorer three minutes before starting time.
ART. 3 . . . Be provided with a clock to be used for timing quarters, extra periods and intermissions, and a stopwatch for timing time-outs. The clock shall be operated by the official timer. The clock and a stopwatch shall be placed so

that they may be seen by the timer. The clock shall be started or stopped as prescribed in Rule 5-8, 10.
ART. 4 . . . Sound a warning signal 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission or a 60-second charged time-out and at 20 seconds of a 30-second time-out, immediately after which the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play, and signal again at the end of the intermission or time-out.
ART. 5 . . . Sound a warning signal at 20 seconds of the 30 seconds (maximum) permitted for replacing a disqualified or injured player, or for a player directed to leave the game.

ART. 6 . . . Stop the clock at the expiration of time for each quarter or extra period, and when an official signals time-out, as in 5-8. For an intermission or a charged time-out, start the stopwatch and signal the referee as outlined in Article 5.
ART. 7 . . . Indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. This signal terminates player activity. If a supplementary red light is used, the timer's signal is the official expiration of playing time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by RookieDude
We can clear up what the other official thought also...he thought it was like a TO, with the sub required to check in before the horn at 20.

I certainly think that you should bring this up at your next meeting. Bring your 2003-04 Rules Book and be prepared to quote from POE #5 on pages 73+74.

As I stated earlier I won't type out the whole thing, but I will post some of it because of what you say this game official mistakenly believed.

"B. This period is NOT a time-out; it is for making a required substitution."

and

"I. A warning horn shall now be sounded at 20 seconds if the required substitute has not reported to the scorer's table. This is an indication to the head coach that a substitute should report immediately (2-12-5). This warning horn does not have the same substitution restrictions as a warning horn for a time-out (3-3-1a); other substitutes from either team may still report and enter the game until the ball is about to become live. (3-3-2)
J. If the coach fails to make the required substitution by the end of the 30-second interval, a direct technical foul shall be assessed to the head coach. (10-5-1d)"

The bold is mine. I highly recommend that you have all of your officials starting using the terminology "replacement period" or "replacement interval". That will emphasize that this is NOT the same as a time-out.

[cloverdale]

in our association they want the timer to give us a horn at 20 sec./ at 30 sec. no horn but a nod to us...it allows us to control the situation, after another strong suggestion to the coach to get a replace up if no movement then a T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by cloverdale
in our association they want the timer to give us a horn at 20 sec./ at 30 sec. no horn but a nod to us...it allows us to control the situation, after another strong suggestion to the coach to get a replace up if no movement then a T.

Why doesn't your association just follow the rules? Coaches shouldn't have to be begged and cajoled to do their duties. I'd bet that after the first coach got a T for failing to replace a DQ'd player in the alloted time the word would be out that the local officials are serious and there wouldn't be a delaying problem again for quite a while.

In short, the NFHS rules should control the situation.

[Kelvin green]

I am going to jump into this...

I am not to terribly concerned about the two horns (all though having it done right is nice)

But if there is no substitute coming after 20, I would be heading to the bench telling the coach to bring in the sub. If he still is screwing around I'd tell him last time coach bring your sub. You can tell if he is just plain dumb or is trying to show you up. If he is trying to show you up whack him.

We need to use common sense instead of going straight to a T.