Spread arms signal for no closely guarded? Yes or no?

[Ref Daddy]

I use it.

I don't think of it as a mechanic - just a reminder and signal that the defender is off the ball too far. I also make a point NOT to hold the arms spread, just a quick "measure' and then drop 'em back down.

I view it as more of game management than anything.

NFHS does not have a "machanic" to warn players to "watch your hands" or "get outta the lane" either. Don't we all use those too?

[Junker]

I don't know why we would add it. If we're not visually counting, they are not closely guarded. Seems pretty simple ot me.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy

I view it as more of game management than anything.

NFHS does not have a "machanic" to warn players to "watch your hands" or "get outta the lane" either. Don't we all use those too?

How does that mechanic help you manage the game?

What mechanic do you use to warn players? I don't have one for that either.

Z

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy

I use it.

I don't think of it as a mechanic - just a reminder and signal that the defender is off the ball too far. I also make a point NOT to hold the arms spread, just a quick "measure' and then drop 'em back down.

I view it as more of game management than anything.

NFHS does not have a "machanic" to warn players to "watch your hands" or "get outta the lane" either. Don't we all use those too?

But it is a mechanic and it doesn't belong in the high school game. When you use a non-fed mechanic and your partner doesn't, you end up looking out of balance. There is a mechanic for closely guarded - it's a visible count. When there is no visible count, then there is no closely guarded. Verbal warnings are not mechanics. This is no different than the tip signal. It only draws extra attention to ourselves and is just incorrect to use.

Many times, people complain about how inconsistent we are in repect to how we call the game. To me the mechanics are just like the lines on the court. They are specific, clear and black&white. There are no gray areas with our mechanics. All you have to do is use the specific mechanics in the book and everyone will at least be consistent in that respect.

Now that I've said that - how many different ways do people use to tell your partner that time is running out in the quarter?

[David B]

Originally posted by Smitty

But it is a mechanic and it doesn't belong in the high school game. When you use a non-fed mechanic and your partner doesn't, you end up looking out of balance. There is a mechanic for closely guarded - it's a visible count. When there is no visible count, then there is no closely guarded. Verbal warnings are not mechanics. This is no different than the tip signal. It only draws extra attention to ourselves and is just incorrect to use.

Many times, people complain about how inconsistent we are in repect to how we call the game. To me the mechanics are just like the lines on the court. They are specific, clear and black&white. There are no gray areas with our mechanics. All you have to do is use the specific mechanics in the book and everyone will at least be consistent in that respect.

Now that I've said that - how many different ways do people use to tell your partner that time is running out in the quarter?

I can see your point, but I wouldn't say "it doesn't belong in a FED game".

As stated above, the counts can be confusing. Count while he's holding, then count while he dribbles, then suddenly he's NOT closely guarded so you stop, and then he's closely guarded and you start.

Many times the coach will say "start the count" or something to that effect. At those times, this signal is an easy way to let the coach know he's not closely guarded.

As the POE I believe was this year, the closely guarded was changed this year and I know some officials who will not count unless the defense can touch the offeense. By rule that is not correct.

Then the next night you have a guy calling it as suggested by rule, so it can be very confusing.

Thanks
David

[Smitty]

Originally posted by David B

I can see your point, but I wouldn't say "it doesn't belong in a FED game".

As stated above, the counts can be confusing. Count while he's holding, then count while he dribbles, then suddenly he's NOT closely guarded so you stop, and then he's closely guarded and you start.

Many times the coach will say "start the count" or something to that effect. At those times, this signal is an easy way to let the coach know he's not closely guarded.

As the POE I believe was this year, the closely guarded was changed this year and I know some officials who will not count unless the defense can touch the offeense. By rule that is not correct.

Then the next night you have a guy calling it as suggested by rule, so it can be very confusing.

Thanks
David

We simply switch arms when changing from one count to another. What do you do when someone holds the ball for a few seconds, then dribbles the ball for a few seconds, then holds the ball for a few seconds? Count with right arm...spread arms wide to indicate a new count...count with left arm...spread arms to indicate new count...count with right arm? And that's not confusing?

I stand by my comment. It's not a Fed mechanic and doesn't belong in the game. It promotes inconsistency.

[David B]

Originally posted by Smitty

We simply switch arms when changing from one count to another. What do you do when someone holds the ball for a few seconds, then dribbles the ball for a few seconds, then holds the ball for a few seconds? Count with right arm...spread arms wide to indicate a new count...count with left arm...spread arms to indicate new count...count with right arm? And that's not confusing?

I stand by my comment. It's not a Fed mechanic and doesn't belong in the game. It promotes inconsistency.

If you would have read carefully what I stated:

Many times the coach will say "start the count" or something to that effect. At those times, this signal is an easy way to let the coach know he's not closely guarded.

That would be the only time I use the signal.

All other times, IMO, switching of the hands is fine.

Thanks
David

[Adam]

Coaches know if you're not counting then they're not close enough. I had a coach last night get on his girl because I stopped counting (I was at 4) when she backed away. "You had a 5, and you let it go.)
Probably one of the better freshman coaches in the area. He actually told me between games that he needs to get off the caffeine. If a coach is asking for a count, and she's not close enough, I'll just shake my head. Same thing I do when they ask me to call a phantom travel. He'll get the point.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Coaches know if you're not counting then they're not close enough. I had a coach last night get on his girl because I stopped counting (I was at 4) when she backed away. "You had a 5, and you let it go.)
Probably one of the better freshman coaches in the area. He actually told me between games that he needs to get off the caffeine. If a coach is asking for a count, and she's not close enough, I'll just shake my head. Same thing I do when they ask me to call a phantom travel. He'll get the point.

That's exactly what I do - shake my head. I do that whenever a coach complains about a no-call when I had nothing. I don't think we need to be so concerned with appeasing a coach that we use mechanics that aren't in the book.

[Junker]

If I remember right, at one of our meetings this year they told us specifically not to use it.

[Ref Daddy]

Originally posted by zebraman

How does that mechanic help you manage the game?

What mechanic do you use to warn players? I don't have one for that either.

Z

Response:

Opening your arms is an indication (when used) that the player is not close enough. That can help manage the game.

I have no physical mechanic for the warnings - just a verbal.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy

Response:

Opening your arms is an indication (when used) that the player is not close enough. That can help manage the game.

I have no physical mechanic for the warnings - just a verbal.

Do all your partners do it as well? If not, how does that manage the game? When your partners don't use the same mechanics as you do, doesn't that cause confusion and put your partners at a disadvantage because it implies they aren't seeing what you are seeing? Consistency is good game management.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Opening your arms is an indication (when used) that the player is not close enough. That can help manage the game.

I have no physical mechanic for the warnings - just a verbal.

Do you think that the "tipped ball" signal or the "clean block" signal also helps manage the game? I don't.

A verbal warning is not the same as a mechanic.

Z

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Smitty

That's exactly what I do - shake my head. I do that whenever a coach complains about a no-call when I had nothing. I don't think we need to be so concerned with appeasing a coach that we use mechanics that aren't in the book.

I agree with you completely philosophically, but I have used the signal once or twice as a communicator. Shaking the head is more acceptable, though, thanks for the suggestion.

[Ref Daddy]

Wheels turning - good discussion.

PROS - Streching out arm's is proactive. A signal to player, crowd and coach your on the play but distance scope not met...yet.

CONS - Stretched arms is not a NFHS mechanic and gets off balance with partner.

Shaking the head "no" concerns me. Isn't that reacting to the coach?