The carry: walk or double dribble?

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
You may want to review 4-43. [/B]

OK - I can't find a 4-43 in my FIBA rules?

However, there is still a mechanic for the carry signal (so I was wrong) - but there is no reference to the violation fo carrying anywhere in the 2004 rules (or in the 2004 POI).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

OK - I can't find a 4-43 in my FIBA rules?

However, there is still a mechanic for the carry signal (so I was wrong) - but there is no reference to the violation fo carrying anywhere in the 2004 rules (or in the 2004 POI). [/B]

WTF is POI? Is that some Aussie acronym?

[rwest]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The violation occurs the instant the ball is released on the second dribble. However, it may not always be possible to determine if it really is a dribble until they've touched it the second time. You may have to delay the call. [/B]

Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.

Lah me, if you delay your whistle and the player that started the drbble didn't touch it again, where did the violation disappear to?

There is no rule that states that a player who has already dribbled can't drop the ball,pass, shoot or start a second dribble. What they can't do is make a second dribble. Starting a dribble is not making a dribble.

This has to be one of the most basic rules around. I can't believe the amount of confusion surrounding it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rwest

Can you please cite a rule from somewhere, anywhere to tell us what that violation is? It sureashell ain't a double dribble because the player hasn't dribbled until he touches it after the ball bounces the first time.

[/B]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.

[/B][/QUOTE]The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.

If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out.

[rwest]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

The ruling says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball, not when he/she touched it after it bounced.

[/B]

The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.

If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.

I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.



[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rwest
[/B]

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. [/B][/QUOTE]If I gave you the impression that I was annoyed, I apologize. It's more like frustration at not getting my point across, which I shouldn't let bother me either because that could be my fault.

Maybe this will help. Think of the act. The player dribbled, stopped, and then dropped, pushed, tapped, or threw the ball. That player could be passing, shooting, starting another dribble or just walking away and forgetting about the ball- dependant on where the ball was directed. This act doesn't fit any definition that's in the rule book until we wait and see what happens next. If you think that the player threw it towards the basket, then you could call the act a "try", and the player could legally go get the ball if it was missed. If the player directed the ball at a teammate, you could call it a pass- and the player legally could not go and get the ball(unless you alternatively somehow rules it a fumble instead). If the player just drops or throws the ball down on the floor close to wher he's standing, and then touches the ball again or continues dribbling- you call this an illegal second dribble. However, it is not an illegal second dribble however until the player actually performs a dribble- which is when he touches the ball a second time after dropping, directing or throwing the ball on the floor and letting it bounce. Iow, the play is NOTHING until the player performs the act that is defined in the rule book, and you can then rule on the legality of that act.

I don't know if that makes any more sense, but I hope so.

[rwest]

I see your point. The act of touching the ball after pushing it to the floor verifies that it was a dribble and not a pass. In all likelihood, my whistle is not going to be fast enough to kill the play before the player touches the ball again, anyway.

I'm waving the white flag of surrender! Play taps over me!

[Camron Rust]

JR, while what you're describing is the way we handle it in practice due to the possibility that it could be a pass (we're unwilling to just make a judgement and wait until we have an excuse not to make a judgement), I think rwest is technically correct.

It IS a dribble when it leaves the players hand. We just can't tell yet, with absolute certainty. The case play posted makes it very clear that the violation occurs when the ball is pushed to the floor, not when it returns to the hand. We're just calling it late after we're sure.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rwest

The case book play uses rule 9-5 as the reference. That rule states that's it's a violation if the player dribbles a second time. The player plain and simply does not dribble a second time if he doesn't touch the ball after he now directed it to the floor after his first dribble ended. There is NO violation committed if the player doesn't touch the ball again.

If a player ends his dribble, then simply stands there and drops the ball and walks away from it without touching it, according to you guys he has just committed a violation. That play is no different than what you're trying to sell above. When you make that call, please let me know how it turns out. [/B]

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.

I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.



[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY.

[rwest]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I'm sorry to belabor the point. Its just no one, until now, has every told me the dribbler had to be the first to touch it after it hits the floor to be considered a double dribble. The only exception to that is case play 4.43.3 as someone pointed out to me. But that is a special case. The case I referenced clearly says the violation occurred when he/she pushed the ball to the floor. No mention is made about touching the ball. In the case you just mentioned, I would not call a double dribble becasue it was obvious she was not dribbling. She abandoned the ball.

I'm sorry this discussion seems to anoy you. Just trying to improve my understanding of the rules.



[Edited by rwest on Feb 3rd, 2005 at 07:46 AM] [/B]

The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rwest

The play you are quoting is not for an illegal second dribble, it is for PALMING/CARRYING. A1 did not end their dribble, they continued it ILLEGALLY. [/B]

I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.

When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.

This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.

Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?

Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?

[rwest]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I'm not arguing the point anymore. However your comment is inaccurate. The case play clearly states the dribble ended. The ruling is repeated below:

Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she PUSHED the ball to the floor a violation occurred (9-5).

This came directly out of the 2004-05 Case Book. Also the case shows up under 4.15 which covers illegal dribble.

[/B]

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.

When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.

This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.

Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?

Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?

How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.

So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.

The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:

A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rwest

Case 4.15.A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE the dribble.

When you blow your whistle you will be using the palm/carry signal, not an illegal dribble signal.

This is a violation for an illegal dribble, not an illegal SECOND dribble.

Can a player end a dribble and fumble the ball?

Can a player make a bounce pass after ending a dribble?

[/B]

Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?

How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.

So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.

The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:

A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.





[/B][/QUOTE]

You are seriously overthinking this. There are two DIFFERENT violations here. Palming, which is the rule you are quoting, is an illegal dribble. You are trying to apply this to a double dribble, which is an illegal SECOND dribble.

If a player crosses over and palms the ball it is a violation when they put the ball back on the floor for PALMING/CARRYING.

If they end the dribble with both hands or CLEARLY with one, releasing the ball to the floor is not a violation, touching it again is and that is an illegal second dribble, with an illegal dribble signal.

[rwest]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Yes to both of your questions. But do you agree with me that the dribble has ended?

How can it be an illegal dribble if it is not a Second Dribble? In other words, what makes it illegal? The fact that he palmed it? No. Its only a carry or palming because he did push it to the floor. I can palm the ball all day long while standing still. I can also palm the ball while at the same time coming to a stop. Palming is only a problem while in the act of dribbling.

So what makes it a violation? The fact that the player has ended his dribble when he palmed the ball and then initiated another dribble when the player PUSHED the ball to the floor.

The case book is very clear. The dribble ended. The violation was called when the ball was pushed to the floor.
The case book even references rule 9-5 which states:

A player shall not dribble a SECOND time after his/her FIRST dribble has ENDED, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART 1: A try for field goal
ART 2: A bat by an opponent
ART 3: A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.





[/B]

You are seriously overthinking this. There are two DIFFERENT violations here. Palming, which is the rule you are quoting, is an illegal dribble. You are trying to apply this to a double dribble, which is an illegal SECOND dribble.

If a player crosses over and palms the ball it is a violation when they put the ball back on the floor for PALMING/CARRYING.

If they end the dribble with both hands or CLEARLY with one, releasing the ball to the floor is not a violation, touching it again is and that is an illegal second dribble, with an illegal dribble signal. [/B][/QUOTE]

I just looked at the 2004-05 Simplified & Illustrated book at the case we've been talking about (4-15-4b). Although, it backs up everything I've said thus far in that the dribble had ended and that the violation is called when the player pushes the ball to the floor and not when the player touches the ball again, the violation is not an illegal dribble as I was thinking. Its as you said palming/carry the ball. The illustration even shows the palming/carry signal.

[Camron Rust]

BZ, a carry that is followed by a dribble IS a special case of an illegal/double dribble because the dribble ended on the carry and another was started. If at the point that it would have been a carry, the player, instead, did not push the ball back to the floor, it would be perfectly legal....because the player has caught the ball. Anything after is a new dribble. Note that the case you cite says "ATTEMPT" to continue the dribbler. However, the attempt is not permitted since it would be a new dribble.

This notion is supported by the fact that they removed the carry signal a few years ago and let the violation be either traveling or an illegal (double) dribble. They only put it back because it was confusing...not because of a rule change.