traveling?

[ctpfive]

A1 has established a pivot foot just after receiving the ball. He then picks up his pivot foot to begin a dribble. Is it considered traveling if the ball does not touch the floor before his pivot comes in contact with the floor again? When is it considered traveling?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by sfriede
A1 has established a pivot foot just after receiving the ball. He then picks up his pivot foot to begin a dribble. Is it considered traveling if the ball does not touch the floor before his pivot comes in contact with the floor again? When is it considered traveling?

It's travelling if the pivot foot comes off the floor before the ball is "released", whatever that means.

[refnrev]

I got a walk.

[Adam]

If he picks his pivot foot up, the only thing he can do is hold it, shoot it, or pass it. If he releases the ball for a dribble, it's a travel as soon as he touches it again.
The first dribble must be out of his hands before the pivot foot is lifted off of the floor.

Back when Iowa still had 6 player basketball (girls), the dribbling motion merely had to be started (downward motion of the hand starting the dribble) prior to the pivot foot coming up. But, they were only allowed 2 dribbles, too. (useless trivia for the evening/morning)

[ctpfive]

One of the things an official had discussed on this forum was the fact that he/she tried to find the pivot foot everytime a player recieves a pass. That is hard to do. Since I have read that, I have been concentrating on quickly finding the pivot foot everytime a player receives the ball. I don't like being right in front of the players bench and have the coach yell traveling. Before I read the forum on finding the pivot foot, I honestly wasn't looking at the feet everytime and as far as I know the coach could have been right. Now I watch the feet and when a player picks up the pivot foot to start a dribble I call travel. However, this is missed quite often. As I watch other games, and pay particular attention to the feet,I see this is not being called. I start to second guess my traveling violations. Do other officials not know the fundamental here, or are they just not seeing it!? Or is there something I am not seeing?

[Edited by sfriede on Jan 29th, 2005 at 10:33 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by sfriede
Now I watch the feet and when a player picks up the pivot foot to start a dribble I call travel. However, this is missed quite often.

It gets miss VERY, VERY often, a lot of the time that's intentional. "The small travels that aren't worth worrying about, aren't worth worrying about." That's not my personal philosophy, but it's the way it's done around here (Portland, OR), and I have conformed to the "prevailing standard." The one that we call here is when a player moves both feet to change the balance as she begins her dribble. Otherwise, it's "benefit" of the doubt.

[ctpfive]

But, a travel is a travel isn't it? If a player fouls, isn't it a foul? This is the part of the game that I am not picking up on. I hear so many officials say they let it go for the good of the game. The advantage/disadvantage is the hard part. It takes much more than just knowing and enforcing the rules. This could be a whole new thread. I am still at the point where a push in the back is a push in the back and I call it a foul, no matter when it happens. Some officials will say that if it has nothing to do with the play or nobody gained anything by it, then let it go.

[Edited by sfriede on Jan 29th, 2005 at 11:19 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by sfriede
But, a travel is a travel isn't it? If a player fouls, isn't it a foul? This is the part of the game that I am not picking up on. I hear so many officials say they let it go for the good of the game. The advantage/disadvantage is the hard part. It takes much more than just knowing and enforcing the rules. This could be a whole new thread. I am still at the point where a push in the back is a push in the back and I call it a foul, no matter when it happens. Some officials will say that if it has nothing to do with the play or nobody gained anything by it, then let it go.

[Edited by sfriede on Jan 29th, 2005 at 11:19 PM]

A push in the back that displaces is NOT advantage/disadvantge, it's rough play, and should be called.

The lift and dribble is not that hard to judge.

Is it very close or obvious?

Did the player raise their pivot and then release, in a natural motion, but the sequence was just off?

Did it happen without any defensive pressure?

Did they lift, move, and throw the ball past the defender?

Review 4-43 and visualize the rules, keep in mind some things can look VERY funky and be 100% legal.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by sfriede
But, a travel is a travel isn't it? If a player fouls, isn't it a foul? This is the part of the game that I am not picking up on. I hear so many officials say they let it go for the good of the game. The advantage/disadvantage is the hard part. It takes much more than just knowing and enforcing the rules. This could be a whole new thread. I am still at the point where a push in the back is a push in the back and I call it a foul, no matter when it happens. Some officials will say that if it has nothing to do with the play or nobody gained anything by it, then let it go.

[Edited by sfriede on Jan 29th, 2005 at 11:19 PM]

It's all about judgement though right? I don't guess on travels. If I'm not sure that it was a travel, I don't call it. Some coaches think they see nitpicky travels on the other team the whole game. Of course, they don't think their own players ever travel. It drives me nuts when I have a partner who micromanages travels.... seems like those kinds of refs are great at calling 20 insignificant travels during the game and missing big, important things. IMHO, the most important thing is to be consistent in your travel calls the entire game.

Z

[ctpfive]

Z - so, you are telling me not to call every travel that I see - only be consistent! This is much easier said than done. What are some pointers to remanin consistent in my traveling calls. I know what a traveling violation is and when I see it, I call it. I am starting to maybe see that one should not call every stinking travel that he sees. There are some travels that no one in the gym would even notice, especially the travel when leading with the pivot foot to start a dribble. What is the key to being consistent in this area?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by sfriede
If a player fouls, isn't it a foul?

You're kidding, right?

Calling a foul in basketball is one of the most subjective calls in all of sports. What I may consider a foul, you may not and vice versa.

My Philosophy -

As a crew of officials, you draw a line early in the game - this is a foul, this is not. Coaches and players adjust from there. Minor adjustments may be made. For example, if the line is too high, i.e. too much contact without fouls and both coaches are unhappy with it, then we may tighten up simply to clean up the cheap stuff and the frustration that may set in. But most of all, everyone wants consistency.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by sfriede
Z - so, you are telling me not to call every travel that I see - only be consistent! This is much easier said than done. What are some pointers to remanin consistent in my traveling calls. I know what a traveling violation is and when I see it, I call it. I am starting to maybe see that one should not call every stinking travel that he sees. There are some travels that no one in the gym would even notice, especially the travel when leading with the pivot foot to start a dribble. What is the key to being consistent in this area?

The key to consistency is experience. Really. Keep trying watch a lot of ball when you're not working. Try to develop rhythm runs in your head: Ste-e-p, ste-e-p, gather,stp,stp, shot okay. Ste-e-e-p, gather, stp,stp,stp --TWEET! Watch the best refs in your area, and pick up these rhythms. Then just live into them. Keep trying. Keep working. You'll get there!

[ctpfive]

bbr - I am kiddig just a little bit. And I am learning that the foul call is quite subjective. The past two years I was a head boys var. bball coach. Our schedule required us to play in two different parts of the state. Our side of the state officials called things pretty tight, which was good for us, because we didn't have the bangers like other teams. That allowed us to hang in there. On the other side of the state officials let em play. Because we were not a physical team, we would get crushed. It was obvious that a foul on our side of the state was much different than on the other side of the state. Explain advantage/disadvantage in this situation. Is it not our job to keep things fair. 200 miles is the difference. No matter the distance we are all the NFHS. The consistency is the hardest part of this game for me to figure out as I mentioned in an earlier reply.
I officiated a varsity boys game earlier this year - 3 whistle crew - we decided in pregame that we would let em play and adjust on the go. Well, right away one of the coaches was complaining that there was pushing going on. So, we slowly tightened things down. At half we talked and felt that we needed to continue to tighten, but not overtighten. Which I feel we did an exceptional job of. The coach was still not happy. I got caught standing next to his bench, which he was already rewarded with a seatbelt, and I said to him - coach, you were complaining because you wanted us to tighten it up, so we did and your still complaining. I didn't here another word from him. The ironic thing is that his team were the ones doing the pushing etc.... So I don't think you can completely judge how you call a game by how the coaches are responding. Another example, same game - I make a foul call against the shooter. The other teams coach is crying to me that he thought it was pretty clean. So in other words he wants us to loosen it up. I don't know, I am new to the officiating world. Maybe we reached a medium here and didn't even realize it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by sfriede
It was obvious that a foul on our side of the state was much different than on the other side of the state. Explain advantage/disadvantage in this situation. Is it not our job to keep things fair. 200 miles is the difference. No matter the distance we are all the NFHS. The consistency is the hardest part of this game for me to figure out as I mentioned in an earlier reply.

Consistency within the game you're working has to be the goal. Consistency from crew to crew within an association is also a gosl for the organization. But you're always going to see different styles and philosophies in high school athletics when moving from area to area. It's just not possible to have the same philosophies across an entire state.

So I don't think you can completely judge how you call a game by how the coaches are responding.

I didn't say you should or could. I said, "Minor adjustments may be made. For example, if the line is too high, i.e. too much contact without fouls and both coaches are unhappy with it, then we may tighten up simply to clean up the cheap stuff and the frustration that may set in."

[Jayzer]

one other thing he can do other than hold,shoot or pass is call time out. in repose to Snaqwells replt.
this is a guess