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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 09:55am
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Haven’t been around much this year so if one of my fellow association members, who hangout here, has posted this situation will someone please point me to it.


This situation, call, and subsequent action has caused a good bit of discussion in our association. Before I get into it I have to say that I was not there but I worked with one of the refs (the R in the game) a few nights later and I also work in the same office as our interpreter so I have heard the situation from two good sources.

As I understand it – Boy’s game, A1 goes up for a jump shot and while still in the air is hit on the arm hard enough to dislodge the ball from his hand. Play takes place in C’s area and he has a good view of it. C blows his whistle on the hit, fist goes up and the other arm goes up to signal two shots. “A1 is still in the air” and “before he lands” regains control of the ball, shoots and makes the basket. The 3 refs and the closest coach all agree that this is the situation. The furthest coach only disagreement was that he thought the signal was a jump ball. So the facts of the situation are not disputed.

The decision - Refs conference and award 2 points to A and give the ball to B who can run the baseline.

Any thoughts?






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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:00am
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Thoughts? Yeah, I'm thinking how could they have been any more wrong than that?

If A1 is fouled on a shot he's going to the line whether the ball goes in or not. The way I read the play I have A1 going to the line for 2 (or 3) shots, the basket does not count.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RecRef
Haven’t been around much this year so if one of my fellow association members, who hangout here, has posted this situation will someone please point me to it.


This situation, call, and subsequent action has caused a good bit of discussion in our association. Before I get into it I have to say that I was not there but I worked with one of the refs (the R in the game) a few nights later and I also work in the same office as our interpreter so I have heard the situation from two good sources.

As I understand it – Boy’s game, A1 goes up for a jump shot and while still in the air is hit on the arm hard enough to dislodge the ball from his hand. Play takes place in C’s area and he has a good view of it. C blows his whistle on the hit, fist goes up and the other arm goes up to signal two shots. “A1 is still in the air” and “before he lands” regains control of the ball, shoots and makes the basket. The 3 refs and the closest coach all agree that this is the situation. The furthest coach only disagreement was that he thought the signal was a jump ball. So the facts of the situation are not disputed.

The decision - Refs conference and award 2 points to A and give the ball to B who can run the baseline.

Any thoughts?

If I were making the call count the basket and award a free throw for a possible three point play. What was the logic for awarding the basket and giving it to B? Was there a foul on the play or did they go with an inadvertent whistle?

Perhaps I'm missing something here.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:25am
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If you aren't leaving something out than I don't understand why this caused so much discussion in your association. It's simple as you describe it. A foul on the shot and the shot went in. Count the bucket and shoot one. Are you sure you didn't leave part of the story out?

Z
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:30am
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I would think if the ball left his hand, a foul was called and the ball obviously did not have a chance to go in the basket, that the try had ended, and the ball would be dead, notwithstanding he caught it again. I'd disallow the basket, and award two free throws.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:41am
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankHtown
I would think if the ball left his hand, a foul was called and the ball obviously did not have a chance to go in the basket, that the try had ended, and the ball would be dead, notwithstanding he caught it again. I'd disallow the basket, and award two free throws.
I'm with Frank.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:53am
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The player is an airborne shooter until he comes to the ground, if he gets hit on the way up and loses the ball, he has every right to try and regain possesion of that ball and still make an attempt at a shot, provided he has not come back to the floor yet. As far as I'm concerned, he could have regained control, went behind his back, between his legs with the ball and tossed it without looking at the basket and he is going to get continuation on the play, again provided he did all this before his airborne shooter status ended.

Also, that C official needs to be patient enough to see the whole play and not show "2 shots" before the play is over, that only helped add to the confusion
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxsonref

Also, that C official needs to be patient enough to see the whole play and not show "2 shots" before the play is over, that only helped add to the confusion
I agree. Where is the preliminary signal? Fist.... and hold fist (be patient). Then give prelim before signaling two shots. Going too fast causes many problems - even more so on a double whistle.

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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxsonref
The player is an airborne shooter until he comes to the ground, if he gets hit on the way up and loses the ball, he has every right to try and regain possesion of that ball and still make an attempt at a shot, provided he has not come back to the floor yet.


Well lessee....

- an airborne shooter is a player with both feet off the floor who has released the ball on a try. He remains an airborne shooter until 1 fot touches the floor.

- a try ends when (among other things) it is certain the ball aint going in or the ball becomes dead.

So in this case A1 goes up, is fouled, the ball pops free (is this a try?) then A1 while still in the air again controls the ball & shoots it. If you judge A1 did not release the ball on a try when it pops free then the play is dead right there - A1 lost control but not on a shot. (Agree?) If you judged A1 did release the ball on a try when it pops free then as soon as it's clear the ball aint going in the ball is dead - he doesn't get another shot at it.

Make sense?
Quote:

As far as I'm concerned, he could have regained control, went behind his back, between his legs with the ball and tossed it without looking at the basket and he is going to get continuation on the play, again provided he did all this before his airborne shooter status ended.


This is clearly wrong in this play. Once it's certain the ball is not going in the try ends. The player remains an airborne shooter but his initial try has ended. If he's not fouled he can attempt another try, but not if he's fouled.

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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:32am
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how many times have we given continuation on a shot where the ball is knocked loose, clearly out of possesion, regained, then shot and made. . . I am going to give the shooter the benefit, since if the foul caused the shot to be that woefully off that it is still in reach of the player, I would most likely rule that not as a shot, but just as losing the handle on the ball, and reward the kid for making an athletic play by being able to regain control and make an attempt, and if he isnt able to get the shot back up, makes it that much easier, then we just shoot 2

sorry airborne shooter may have been the wrong way to word it according to the rule book, but hopefully my point is made


[Edited by paxsonref on Jan 28th, 2005 at 11:34 AM]
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxsonref
how many times have we given continuation on a shot where the ball is knocked loose, clearly out of possesion, regained, then shot and made. . . I am going to give the shooter the benefit, since if the foul caused the shot to be that woefully off that it is still in reach of the player, I would most likely rule that not as a shot, but just as losing the handle on the ball, and reward the kid for making an athletic play by being able to regain control and make an attempt, and if he isnt able to get the shot back up, makes it that much easier, then we just shoot 2

sorry airborne shooter may have been the wrong way to word it according to the rule book, but hopefully my point is made


[Edited by paxsonref on Jan 28th, 2005 at 11:34 AM]
No, you did make your point which is why I tried to be more precise in my post.

Continuous motion as defined only applies until the ball is clearly in flight, so if A1 is hammered but still manages to release the ball on a try he does not get a second chance. That's just the way the rules read.

The more interesting case is how do the rules apply in the case where A1 is fouled & loses the ball but not on a try. I believe what I posted is correct, that if A1 is fouled he does not get a chance to regain control & shoot, even if he's started his continuous motion. Taking it to a ridiculous extreme what if A1 is driving the lane, starts his motion, B1 reaches in and manages to knock the ball completely away from A1 as he is fouled. A1 doesn't get a chance to retrieve the ball & try again claimng continuous motion, does he?

The same principle applies in this sitch. And I call it that way.

Anyway, good discussion.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:49am
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I guess if you let him take the second attempt, and he gets fouled again, he gets 4 free throws.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 11:56am
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Nope. Two shots, one for each foul.
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 12:03pm
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My thought on this situation is if a player is fouled, so that the ball is knocked loose, I have a very tough time considering this a try if the ball is still close enough to him to be able to regain control of, since the ball is not clearly in flight, but dislodged because of the contact by the opponent. does that make sense?
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Old Fri Jan 28, 2005, 12:25pm
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I agree that the best solution is to slow down...but since that didn't happen it seems to me that we have a player that has started his shooting motion, is fouled, and the attempt did not go in (he regained control).

The official had already declared two shots. I would have to consider this his determination that the original try has ended...disallow the basket and shoot two.
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