Airborn Shooter

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right
I can understand your point however, I said it was a SIMILAR play, not IDENTICAL. The shooter is still in the air and still in the act of shooting, what does it matter if he bobbles, it gets knocked out of his hands or if he switches hands.

The difference is that the shooter bobbling the ball or switching hands without a defender touching the ball does not end a try. A defender knocking the ball out of a shooter's hands during a try, and the shooter then grabbing or touching the ball again does end that try. The rules to back those statements up have already been cited.

That's why the plays aren't similar or identical.

[Maverick]

This is simple, answer these two questions:

A1 goes up, B1 hits him, the ball comes out and A2 tips it in, does it count?

A1 goes up to tip the ball and is fouled by B1, on the way back down A1 tips it again and the ball goes in, does it count? [/B]

I'm not sure either contributes to our discussion: In the first, A2 isn't the original shooter so it wouldn't count. But that doesn't mean that the same player can't complete a try. In the second situation, the first try ended so the second wouldn't count. I'm suggesting that there is only one try in our situation so again I don't think that helps with our discussion.

[Almost Always Right]

Jurassic - Help me understand - If A1 stays in the air and doesn't come back down to the ground, he can have more than one try for goal?

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The difference is that the shooter bobbling the ball or switching hands without a defender touching the ball does not end a try. A defender knocking the ball out of a shooter's hands during a try, and the shooter then grabbing or touching the ball again does end that try. The rules to back those statements up have already been cited.

That's why the plays aren't similar or identical.

Everying you're basing all your arguments is based on the assumption that the first time the ball was out of the shooter's hands was a try. How can this be ruled a try?

[Almost Always Right]

That is a valid point. I assumed it was ruled a try because the calling official said they were shooting 2 shots when he blew the whistle.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

I'm not sure either contributes to our discussion: In the first, A2 isn't the original shooter so it wouldn't count. But that doesn't mean that the same player can't complete a try. In the second situation, the first try ended so the second wouldn't count. I'm suggesting that there is only one try in our situation so again I don't think that helps with our discussion.
[/B]

Both contribute.

The first shows that the ball is dead when it is loose and does not go in the basket from A1.

The second applies because of 4-40-6.

So again this is simple when the ball is knocked loose it is either NOT a try and dead, or it IS a try and a second try cannot be attempted.

Both cases are handled the same way no basket and 2 or 3 FTs.

You have still given no rule or case play that says otherwise, in fact the dead ball exception on a foul clearly states, the try MUST BE CONTINUOUS or the ball becomes dead. Starting the shooting motion and regaining the ball is NOT continuous.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Almost Always Right
I can understand your point however, I said it was a SIMILAR play, not IDENTICAL. The shooter is still in the air and still in the act of shooting, what does it matter if he bobbles, it gets knocked out of his hands or if he switches hands.

That's the key phrase!

I read this thread rather quickly so forgive me if I am mistaken, but I am quite amazed that, while the definitions of airborne shooter and how a try ends have been provided, no one has quoted the definition of the act of shooting.

SECTION 40 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 . . . The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

Once the ball leaves the player's hands the act of shooting has ended. So any touching of the ball after that could only be considered a second act.

Even though the original act of shooting does include the airborne shooter, others have already pointed out that that term is defined as "a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal..." Therefore, once this player catches the ball again, even this status must end. What we have on this play is a RErelease of the ball. That's why it matters, if the ball gets knocked out of his hands.

Ruling: No basket and two FTs for being fouled during the original act of shooting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I read this thread rather quickly so forgive me if I am mistaken, but I am quite amazed that, while the definitions of airborne shooter and how a try ends have been provided, no one has quoted the definition of the act of shooting.

SECTION 40 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 . . . The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
[/B][/QUOTE]You are mistaken. I cited rule 4-40 way back in the first post on page 2 of this thread. You are forgiven.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I read this thread rather quickly so forgive me if I am mistaken, but I am quite amazed that, while the definitions of airborne shooter and how a try ends have been provided, no one has quoted the definition of the act of shooting.

SECTION 40 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 . . . The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

You are mistaken. I cited rule 4-40 way back in the first post on page 2 of this thread. You are forgiven. [/B][/QUOTE]

Am I misreading you, JR, or did you misunderstand me? You did NOT quote 4-40-1 which is the definition of the act of shooting, rather you only quoted 4-40-4 which states how a try ends.

That is EXACTLY what I wrote had been given, while stating that the definition provided in 4-40-1 had NOT been referenced in the thread.

Your above claim is baffling.

Here is your post from the top of page 2. It does NOT even contain the words "act of shooting", let alone a definition of that term:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Lah me, simple play.

Rule 6-7Exception3-- foul during a try-- "The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight". Iow, in this case the initial trying motion in this sitch ENDED by rule as soon as the ball left the shooter's hand(s).

Rule- 4-40-4--"The try ends when....it is certain that the throw is unsuccessful...." In this case, the try ends as soon as the shooter touched it again after the ball left his hands on the first try.

Back to R6-7Exception--- "The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends...." The try ended with the second touching(obviously it can't go in now).

What you have here is just a second attempt at a "try", but unfortunately it's a second attempt with a dead ball. You can never count it. No basket and 2 FT's is the only call.

Are you people trying to tell me that a player who is fouled while tapping a ball can continue tapping the ball until he finally gets one to drop? Same thing, isn't it?

But can I save your forgiveness and use it another time when I need it? Kind of like a "Get out of Jail Free" card.

[carldog]

Very interesting discussion - keep in mind that lots of us are learning from your carrying on like this !

I can't believe I 'll ever see this play...but I know how to call it now.

Jurassic Referee and Friends are right on this one.

[azbigdawg]

Im thinking that this one is hard only because some people are thinking too much and not reading the rules?

[golfdesigner]

Originally posted by carldog
Very interesting discussion - keep in mind that lots of us are learning from your carrying on like this !

I can't believe I 'll ever see this play...but I know how to call it now.

Jurassic Referee and Friends are right on this one.

You do?

How?

[carldog]

"What you have here is just a second attempt at a "try", but unfortunately it's a second attempt with a dead ball. You can never count it. No basket and 2 FT's is the only call."

[QuebecRef87]

1. Jump

2. Contact - Foul - Ball is loose (LET'S SAY it is possible that the ball enters the basket)

--- DEAD BALL! --- If a player touches the ball beyond this point, the play ends...

4. Player gets the ball --- PLAY ENDS

5. Player shoots and scores, but who cares since the play has already ended. Foul during a shot that failed = No basket (of course: the shot failed) and 2 free throws.


That's it! Why are you guys argueing about continuous motion and the definition of a try?! Am I missing something?