One hand or two hands

[zanzibar]

I wanted to start a new thread on a specific play about a topic we have been discussing. A1 is holding the ball tightly with 1 hand. He is able to do this by using his forearm, bicep, and chest to aid his hand to firmly hold the ball. A1 is standing on the floor.
B1 gets 1 hand on the ball so firmly that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Is this a held ball or do both players have to have 2 hands on the ball? I think held ball.

[Adam]

Originally posted by zanzibar
I wanted to start a new thread on a specific play about a topic we have been discussing. A1 is holding the ball tightly with 1 hand. He is able to do this by using his forearm, bicep, and chest to aid his hand to firmly hold the ball. A1 is standing on the floor.
B1 gets 1 hand on the ball so firmly that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Is this a held ball or do both players have to have 2 hands on the ball? I think held ball.

Nothing says two hands are necessary for a held ball. Happens all the time on a shot. Shooter has ball in one hand, defender stops it with one hand. It stops ball from being released. Held ball.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by zanzibar
I wanted to start a new thread on a specific play about a topic we have been discussing. A1 is holding the ball tightly with 1 hand. He is able to do this by using his forearm, bicep, and chest to aid his hand to firmly hold the ball. A1 is standing on the floor.
B1 gets 1 hand on the ball so firmly that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Is this a held ball or do both players have to have 2 hands on the ball? I think held ball.

Definitely a held ball. But this is not the same as the other thread's discussions. In your case, the player with the ball is clutching the ball with his arm tightly. The defender would have to use hand plus forearm at the very least to be able to clutch the ball in such a fashion that the offensive player couldn't pull the ball away. The other threads only referred to a hand touching the ball, not clutching the ball with hand and arm. See the difference?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Smitty

Definitely a held ball. But this is not the same as the other thread's discussions. In your case, the player with the ball is clutching the ball with his arm tightly. The defender would have to use hand plus forearm at the very least to be able to clutch the ball in such a fashion that the offensive player couldn't pull the ball away. The other threads only referred to a hand touching the ball, not clutching the ball with hand and arm. See the difference?

Yup, and if a player on the floor has the ball held firmly betwwen both legs, and an opponent then puts a hand on the ball, is that a held ball too?

Btw, that one was in the case book many,many years ago.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, and if a player on the floor has the ball held firmly betwwen both legs, and an opponent then puts a hand on the ball, is that a held ball too?

Btw, that one was in the case book many,many years ago.

Hey, DeNucci, get up to the attic.
I want a specific reference and quote!

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and if a player on the floor has the ball held firmly betwwen both legs, and an opponent then puts a hand on the ball, is that a held ball too?

Btw, that one was in the case book many,many years ago.

That's a good one. I'm gonna say no, if it's just a hand on the ball. Would look pretty funny though. Now if a kid has the ball tight between his legs (I'm picturing a scrum on the floor here) and another kid grabs the ball with both hands or clutches it with his arm and can't pull it out from the kid's legs - then I have a held ball.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Nothing says two hands are necessary for a held ball. Happens all the time on a shot. Shooter has ball in one hand, defender stops it with one hand. It stops ball from being released. Held ball.

Snaqwells I'm not talking about a shot( normally that is an airbone shoter or passer). That is covered under 4-25-2. I'm trying to get a clarification on 4-25-1. This player is standing on the floor therefore a different rule applies.
Thanks,
Zanzibar

[blindzebra]

One hand does not equal two...or in this case a hand, wrist, and bicep.

[Ref in PA]

What if the defender's one hand is pinning the ball to the body of the offensive player (along with the offensive player's arm pinning the ball to the body)? How is that different than one hand blocking a try that results in a held ball? In both cases the ball was pinned and not moving.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
What if the defender's one hand is pinning the ball to the body of the offensive player (along with the offensive player's arm pinning the ball to the body)? How is that different than one hand blocking a try that results in a held ball? In both cases the ball was pinned and not moving.

The difference is that the offensive player could simply pivot and pull the ball away from the defender. The defender doesn't have any grip on the ball such that it can't be pulled away.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, and if a player on the floor has the ball held firmly betwwen both legs, and an opponent then puts a hand on the ball, is that a held ball too?

Btw, that one was in the case book many,many years ago.

"kicking" violation.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by blindzebra
One hand does not equal two...or in this case a hand, wrist, and bicep.

So if you catch the basketball in the endzone, does one butt-cheeek equal two feet?

[Ref Daddy]

SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

Why is it that the (s) is not shown in the Case Book?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BushRef

Kicking? How ya figger?

NCAA 4-43 AR 30, part of which reads, "The intent of this rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage byu using any part of the leg."