Freshman are still learning

[LepTalBldgs]

End of a freshman boys game, home team losing by about 5. They are in the "foul to stop clock" mode with about 15 seconds left.

I call the foul as new trail and player becomes exasperated since its his fifth foul. He walks toward bench and keeps going. I'm watching him from about the free throw line. He hits the door, probably 15-20 feet behind bench. I'm gonna let this go, just let them shoot the 1 and 1 and go home.

He pushes the handle on the door, opens the door and walks out, hitting open air just about the same time my whistle gets air.

As partner was administering I gathered the captains together at division line and explained the call (had T'd one coach early in 3rd period so didn't feel like being friendly to him). The captains didn't understand the T so appreciated the explanation.

Pretty easy T. They're freshman, they'll learn.

[cmathews]

what exactly was the T for?? this sounds like a game administration thing at this point to me....he is DQ'd, as long as he doesn't try to get back in the game, he can go home for all I care....

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by LepTalBldgs
End of a freshman boys game, home team losing by about 5. They are in the "foul to stop clock" mode with about 15 seconds left.

I call the foul as new trail and player becomes exasperated since its his fifth foul. He walks toward bench and keeps going. I'm watching him from about the free throw line. He hits the door, probably 15-20 feet behind bench. I'm gonna let this go, just let them shoot the 1 and 1 and go home.

He pushes the handle on the door, opens the door and walks out, hitting open air just about the same time my whistle gets air.

As partner was administering I gathered the captains together at division line and explained the call (had T'd one coach early in 3rd period so didn't feel like being friendly to him). The captains didn't understand the T so appreciated the explanation.

Pretty easy T. They're freshman, they'll learn.

15 seconds left in the game I understand that players aren't supposed to be leaving the bench area and you're right but wrong IMHO. This is something you could have overlooked given the circumstances JMO. You shouldn't be collecting Tees as if they were notches on your belt. They should be used as a game management tool.

Reminds me of a partner that I was working with that gave a Coach two technicals with 5 seconds left in the game. It happened so fast that I didn't even get to be the good cop after the first one was given. Oh well he had to do the paperwork.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Jan 20th, 2005 at 09:43 PM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by LepTalBldgs
End of a freshman boys game, home team losing by about 5. They are in the "foul to stop clock" mode with about 15 seconds left.

I call the foul as new trail and player becomes exasperated since its his fifth foul. He walks toward bench and keeps going. I'm watching him from about the free throw line. He hits the door, probably 15-20 feet behind bench. I'm gonna let this go, just let them shoot the 1 and 1 and go home.

He pushes the handle on the door, opens the door and walks out, hitting open air just about the same time my whistle gets air.

As partner was administering I gathered the captains together at division line and explained the call (had T'd one coach early in 3rd period so didn't feel like being friendly to him). The captains didn't understand the T so appreciated the explanation.

Pretty easy T. They're freshman, they'll learn.

I don't know what the two posters after the OP were reading, but I would've put my whistle up as soon as the kid hit the door.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't know what the two posters after the OP were reading, but I would've put my whistle up as soon as the kid hit the door.

Why? Did it make the game better? Did it have anything to do with the game? Did it make the game worse? To me in this particular case, in this particular situation and in this particular game and the way it was described it's not worth the trouble. JMO. Don't tell me in a freshman game if a kid had an illeagle number you wouldn't let him play? Assuming no way to make it legal?

[cmathews]

Rich,
Where is the rules reference that says a DQ'd player can't leave? I understand if he is showing you up during or because of leaving. I don't have my books, but exactly where is it that it says he can't leave?? I really think this is a coaching/administration issue, similar to the number of quarters kids can play....

[Texas Aggie]

I don't think the T was unreasonable, but I'd have to agree with Gordon on this. I'm of the opinion that your job isn't to teach Freshman sportsmanship or anything else, but to administer the game. Its the coaches responsibility to keep control of his team, and if he's going to ignore this, it will hurt the coach later.

In one of my first freshman games, I had a ball out of bounds that I blew and pointed. One kid didn't like it or didn't agree and tried to be funny (I guess) by trying to make my arm go the other way. I busted his butt with a T and darn near threw him out (that would have been an overreaction), and the coach went nuts. THAT is an example of a kid trying to show you up, and doing something (i.e. touching you) that you can't tolerate.

[Adam]

Making physical contact like that? Tossing him wouldn't have been over reacting.
Who did the coach go nuts on? You or the player?

[Rich]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Why? Did it make the game better? Did it have anything to do with the game? Did it make the game worse? To me in this particular case, in this particular situation and in this particular game and the way it was described it's not worth the trouble. JMO. Don't tell me in a freshman game if a kid had an illeagle number you wouldn't let him play? Assuming no way to make it legal?

Who CARES if it made the game better? It's poor decorum. A DQ'ed kid sits down.

Too many people are worried about escaping without being seen and/or noticed. We have a greater responsibility, IMO.

[Texas Aggie]

The coach didn't see it. He went off on me. He thought every call that went against his team was wrong, and he thought that the ball really did belong to his team.

In this situation at that time, an ejection probably would have been an overreaction. But that was 15 years ago. Today, I'd probably eject solely on nerve. I'm not exactly small (6 foot 240) and somewhat mean looking (crew cut with what's left up there!). I think the kid was a clown and thought it would be funny, rather than having a malicious "screw-you" attitude. I seriously doubt he played hoops after that year.

With that said, I'd never fault an official for tossing someone who did that. I think ejections like these, though, are case by case and depend heavily on how one senses what happened.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
The coach didn't see it. He went off on me. He thought every call that went against his team was wrong, and he thought that the ball really did belong to his team.

In this situation at that time, an ejection probably would have been an overreaction. But that was 15 years ago. Today, I'd probably eject solely on nerve. I'm not exactly small (6 foot 240) and somewhat mean looking (crew cut with what's left up there!). I think the kid was a clown and thought it would be funny, rather than having a malicious "screw-you" attitude. I seriously doubt he played hoops after that year.

With that said, I'd never fault an official for tossing someone who did that. I think ejections like these, though, are case by case and depend heavily on how one senses what happened.

Point taken. I think I had that coach tonight in a YMCA game.

[missinglink]

Originally posted by cmathews
Rich,
Where is the rules reference that says a DQ'd player can't leave? I understand if he is showing you up during or because of leaving. I don't have my books, but exactly where is it that it says he can't leave?? I really think this is a coaching/administration issue, similar to the number of quarters kids can play....

10-4-1g....and maybe e....and maybe f. If the kid got as far as the door, good possibility the coach did not consider it a coaching issue. Smells bad, tastes bad, but Technical Foul is best call for the coach, kid, game and the crew.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
Rich,
Where is the rules reference that says a DQ'd player can't leave? I understand if he is showing you up during or because of leaving. I don't have my books, but exactly where is it that it says he can't leave?? I really think this is a coaching/administration issue, similar to the number of quarters kids can play....

It's not a coaching/administation issue; it's a rule.

Case book play 10.5SitA--"A disqualified team member or student bench personnel shall go to or remain on the bench".

[cmathews]

JR, I don't disagree, but the way I read the situation, it is saying that we shouldn't ask them to leave unless for circumstances that the case book talks about, but if they want to go to the locker room on their own or go home, that is up to them and game management. I just don't think I would T the kid up for leaving the building, but then again, one would have to see it to be sure.

[mick]

Originally posted by cmathews
JR, I don't disagree, but the way I read the situation, it is saying that we shouldn't ask them to leave unless for circumstances that the case book talks about, but if they want to go to the locker room on their own or go home, that is up to them and game management. I just don't think I would T the kid up for leaving the building, but then again, one would have to see it to be sure.

cmathews,
Here's my bet on JR.
He'd go to the coach and suggest the player come back.
mick