foul as horn sounds...

[thumpferee]

0:04.4 seconds on the clock. Team A inbounding on the sideline in their front court, down by 1. A1 throws in to A2 at the top of the key. A2 drives toward the foul line where B1 tries to take the charge, but leans in causing contact on A2 as he goes up for the shot with 00:00. The horn and officials whistle sounds at exactly the same time.
The foul occurred a split second before the horn and whistle.

The official awards the 2 free throws, A2 makes 1 of 2, OT.

Whould the time the foul occured vs time the horn and whistle blew be relevant according to the rules and your decision?

[jritchie]

before the horn call the foul, shoot throws...after horn game over...

[Adam]

If the horn blew before the shot, no foul. If the shot was released prior to the horn, or if the foul occured before the horn, shoot the shots.
Shoot the shots with the lane clear and let the chips fall.

[whistleone]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
If the horn blew before the shot, no foul. If the shot was released prior to the horn, or if the foul occured before the horn, shoot the shots.
Shoot the shots with the lane clear and let the chips fall.

The foul makes the ball dead, not the whistle (Basketball Rules Fundamentals #16). Continuous motion also applies here. If A2 starts the act of shooting before the horn, A2 is allowed to "complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight." (4-11 Art. 2)

To sum up, foul occurs before the horn; report foul. If player was in the act of shooting before the foul is committed, A2 shoots 2 free throws. If not, period over.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by whistleone

The foul makes the ball dead, not the whistle (Basketball Rules Fundamentals #16). Continuous motion also applies here. If A2 starts the act of shooting before the horn, A2 is allowed to "complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight." (4-11 Art. 2)

To sum up, foul occurs before the horn; report foul. If player was in the act of shooting before the foul is committed, A2 shoots 2 free throws. If not, period over.

Are you saying that if he 1.Starts his shooting motion, 2.Gets fouled, 3.The horn goes off, 4.Then he releases......he gets to shoot free throws even if not in the bonus?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

Are you saying that if he 1.Starts his shooting motion, 2.Gets fouled, 3.The horn goes off, 4.Then he releases......he gets to shoot free throws even if not in the bonus?

Yes.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

Nevermind, I'm with you. Lah-me

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Jan 12th, 2005 at 12:44 PM]

[Adam]

Originally posted by whistleone

The foul makes the ball dead, not the whistle (Basketball Rules Fundamentals #16). Continuous motion also applies here. If A2 starts the act of shooting before the horn, A2 is allowed to "complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight." (4-11 Art. 2)

To sum up, foul occurs before the horn; report foul. If player was in the act of shooting before the foul is committed, A2 shoots 2 free throws. If not, period over.

I think the only point of contention I have here is with the following chronology.

1. A2 starts his shooting motion.
2. Horn blows.
3. B1 hits A2's shooting arm in what would be a foul.
4. A2 releases shot.

I've got no foul here.

So, back to my original premise. If the shot is released before the horn, a foul after the horn may be called if an airborne shooter is involved. If the shot is not released before the horn, then the fould must have been committed before the horn.

[Adam]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

I'm not sure I understand. Please help.

Once the shooting motion starts, any foul against that player is a shooting foul.
try this scenario.
1. A1 starts the shooting motion.
2. B1 fouls him.
3. Horn sounds
4. A1 releases shot.
5. Shot goes in.

Result. No basket, two freethrows for A1 for the shooting foul.

[whistleone]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Once the shooting motion starts, any foul against that player is a shooting foul.
try this scenario.
1. A1 starts the shooting motion.
2. B1 fouls him.
3. Horn sounds
4. A1 releases shot.
5. Shot goes in.

Result. No basket, two freethrows for A1 for the shooting foul.

Here's the Case Book reference to back it up: 6.7 Sit. C
Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap? RULING: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight.

[blindzebra]

You guys are making this too hard.

Foul before horn means we have a foul and free throws.

Foul, horn, release with made basket means NO basket and shoot the free throws.

Horn and ANYTHING AFTER IT game over.

Now if we are talking NCAA, then the timing of the officials whistle would come into play, because there is no lag time. If we have foul, whistle, and then horn, time would be put back on the clock and a ball released after the foul and horn could be scored.

[Adam]

Originally posted by blindzebra
You guys are making this too hard.

Foul before horn means we have a foul and free throws.

Foul, horn, release with made basket means NO basket and shoot the free throws.

Horn and ANYTHING AFTER IT game over.

Now if we are talking NCAA, then the timing of the officials whistle would come into play, because there is no lag time. If we have foul, whistle, and then horn, time would be put back on the clock and a ball released after the foul and horn could be scored.

Thanks for simplifying that.

[Man in Grey]

In FIBA rules we just had this discussion too. the outcome was this:

If a foul is made and called it stops the clock, but the ball stays live. This would mean the horn should not have been blown and be disregarded. So if the foul is commited before the horn as we have here, even if the shot is released after the horn, the basket counts and with 0.2 or something on the clock, a free throw is awarded, if shot misses 2 or 3 FT ofcourse.

[oc]

Originally posted by Man in Grey
In FIBA rules we just had this discussion too. the outcome was this:

If a foul is made and called it stops the clock, but the ball stays live. This would mean the horn should not have been blown and be disregarded. So if the foul is commited before the horn as we have here, even if the shot is released after the horn, the basket counts and with 0.2 or something on the clock, a free throw is awarded, if shot misses 2 or 3 FT ofcourse.

I ref FIBA occasionally. Can you cite a rule reference on this for me.
(Not disagreeing-I am not up on FIBA as much as NF--but want to check it myself before I go putting time back on a clock.)

[Man in Grey]

I have to correct myself, this is the rule:

34.2.2
If the foul is committed on a player in the act of shooting, that player shall be awarded a number of free throw(s) as follows:
• If the shot from the field goal area is successful, the goal shall count and one (1) additional free throw awarded.

• If the shot from the two-point field goal area is unsuccessful, two (2) free throws will be awarded.

• If the shot from the three-point field goal area is unsuccessful, three (3) free throws will be awarded.

• If the player is fouled as, or just before, the game clock signal sounds for the end of the period or as, or just before, the twenty-four second device signal sounds, while the ball is still in the player's hand(s) and the field goal is successful, the goal shall not count and two (2) or three (3) free throws will be awarded.

So only when the shot is released, when the foul is called, it can be a fieldgoal.