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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 08:24am
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Youth game of all things. Players age 10-12.

During the game, a player makes a comment, "these refs don't call anything, they never do." I coulda T'd him up right there but decided to talk with the kid. I told him not to worry about the officials and just play the game. He rolled his eyes and walked away. This kid has a serious attitude for his age and every else knows this, even his mom.

During half-time, I talk to the Sports Coordinator and inform him about this kids attitude, and suggest he talk to the coach to maybe discipline this kid at their discretion. Anyway, midway through the 3rd quarter, this player is on the bench. I am standing on the endline ready to administer a throw-in. This kid walks off the bench, walks along the endline, brushes against me and blatantly kicks his leg and moves his arm as if I was in his way. There is approx 25 feet around the floor of this gym.(I find out later he was going to the boys room)

Bang! I T him up. As I am walking to report, both coaches (HC and AC) are up off the bench hollaring, "What, what did he do? How can you call that,etc...) Bang! T on the AC! After I report I go over to the HC to explain. As I am explaining he waves his hand in my face, as if to say FU, and says "whatever". Bang! T on the HC. As I go report that T, I inform him he has to sit the rest of the game.
I didn't realize he was already gone because of the 2indirects and Direct. He then waves his hand at me again and tells me not to talk to him, and tells me to be quiet. Bang! Yet another T. 4 in 30 seconds.

After looking back and talking with my father who is a 32 yr HS official , he says I shoulda T'd the kid up with his comment earlier.

After the game the AC asks to talk with me. I say, sure coach. This is this kids mother. She was calm and asks me what her son did because other parents told her he didn't do anything wrong, he was just trying to get out of my way. LOL I explain to her what happened. She brings her son over and apologizes for his behavior and she does the same.

My father also told me I should have never talked to her either.

Sorry for the long post, but I actually shortened it a lil.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 09:07am
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good thing your partner got right in there to help out, you coulda sprained a finger dishing out T's like that. Hopefully the league administraitor will help out with additional suspensions. A coach with issues like that needs a week off to get things back in order. Of course, they also may decide you need a week off to cool down.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 09:15am
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Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee

I am standing on the endline ready to administer a throw-in. This kid walks off the bench, walks along the endline,brushes against me and blatantly kicks his leg and moves his arm as if I was in his way. There is approx 25 feet around the floor of this gym.(I find out later he was going to the boys room)

Your thoughts are appreciated!

If the player made contact, any contact, with you deliberately, then it should have been an immediate flagrant "T". You can't allow any participant to get away with acts like that. Fwiw, in our associaton, it's mandatory that all contact situations are reported to the executive immediately, so we can recommend whether charges should be laid also.

Tough situation. Your dad's advice was right on, imo.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee

I am standing on the endline ready to administer a throw-in. This kid walks off the bench, walks along the endline,brushes against me and blatantly kicks his leg and moves his arm as if I was in his way. There is approx 25 feet around the floor of this gym.(I find out later he was going to the boys room)

Your thoughts are appreciated!

If the player made contact, any contact, with you deliberately, then it should have been an immediate flagrant "T". You can't allow any participant to get away with acts like that. Fwiw, in our associaton, it's mandatory that all contact situations are reported to the executive immediately, so we can recommend whether charges should be laid also.

Tough situation. Your dad's advice was right on, imo.
Yup. Don't try to reason with 10-12 year olds. Whack and get on with the game.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 09:49am
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Sounds good to me. I think players down at the 7/8th grade level are getting worse. Last night I had a player say "Come on ref, he's all over me".. I just said "Ok..." and things went on. But, seems like it's all kids can do these days is cry if they don't get their way.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 10:05am
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Having my ample assignments of 7, 8 and 9 graders I too see the increase in "referee baiting".

I suggest you do your research yourself to see how the players respond to their coach's, how they follow their lead.

Ignore the player I say - warn the coach. I got a game to referee, he has players to coach. Makes sense to me we each do our job.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 10:11am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref Daddy


Ignore the player I say - warn the coach.
Unfortunately, there's no rules basis that will allow you to do that. You have to penalize the person who actually commits the act, not someone who you may think might be peripherally involved.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 11:19am
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How and why could you call a T on a coach who was now ejected for his 2 indirects and one direct?


Once your ejected get them out of the building nothing more.!
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
How and why could you call a T on a coach who was now ejected for his 2 indirects and one direct?


Once your ejected get them out of the building nothing more.!
As I stated in my original post, I had not realized he was already gone. The T's happened so fast.

But, if a coach was already ejected and being escorted off the court and decided to flip me the bird, I would T'em!

He is still liable for his actions and his team would be penalized.

I looked up the rule and I found nothing that says you cannot T a coach who was already ejected.

Maybe you have a rule reference for this?

I may have just started another thread!


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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
How and why could you call a T on a coach who was now ejected for his 2 indirects and one direct?


Once your ejected get them out of the building nothing more.!
Because it all happened so fast that he hadn't realized the coach was done at that point.
I probably would have given the AC the same explanation you did, if she asked politely. I would have been very cautious, though. If you're giving a T when not everyone knows what it's for, it's generally best to explain it. IMO
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 11:47am
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High school rules - if a player/coach earns the 3rd T, he/she gets the 3rd T. There's nothing setting a limit on the number of technical fouls a participant can earn. (Although at some point you'd likely have a forfeit.)

NCAA - once you're ejected, no more T's.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 12:05pm
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totally agree...

Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
Sounds good to me. I think players down at the 7/8th grade level are getting worse. Last night I had a player say "Come on ref, he's all over me".. I just said "Ok..." and things went on. But, seems like it's all kids can do these days is cry if they don't get their way.
totally agree. jr high players are getting worse. i have players telling them the above stuff all the time. and i tell them to tell their captain. and have the captain tell me. then i tell them to play on. otherwise as they progress to higher levels, they might think it's ok to express their opinions to officials, when they are not captains. that could get them in more trouble.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
NCAA - once you're ejected, no more T's.
Correct, but this is by interp, isn't it? I don't think there's an article in Rule 10 that says "no more Ts", is there? I think I read this in mid-season bulletin.
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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
How and why could you call a T on a coach who was now ejected for his 2 indirects and one direct?


Once your ejected get them out of the building nothing more.!
As I stated in my original post, I had not realized he was already gone. The T's happened so fast.

But, if a coach was already ejected and being escorted off the court and decided to flip me the bird, I would T'em!

He is still liable for his actions and his team would be penalized.

I looked up the rule and I found nothing that says you cannot T a coach who was already ejected.

Maybe you have a rule reference for this?

I may have just started another thread!


I cannot provide rule reference nor can I provide casebook play.

Once the coach is ejected (we know there are special exceptions for high school players ) they are no longer a participant in the contest. I would equate this now to a fan who needs to be escorted out. Game management now has responsibility to deal with this unruly non-partcipant. It will be up to the league to issue further penalties or sanctions.

If he does not want to go the game is a forfeit. If he is leaving and flips me off I am not going to ring him up again. I will file the necessary reports etc.

Where do you draw the line 2 directs, 3 directs, 4 directs? You may have a forfeit but where is the line? In this case the coach had two indirects and two directs.
You are right there isn't a reference that prevents the calling 4 t's on a coach nor is there a reference that explicitly permits it either.

The NFHS rules provide no definitive answers, however I would look to both the NBA and NCAA by analogy; they both have interpreted that an ejected person can pick up no more T's.

He needs to be penalized not his team, particularly a bunch 10-12 year olds.

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Old Tue Jan 11, 2005, 03:38pm
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Its my theory that one of the big problems with sportsmanship are these weekend tournaments that kids start playing in upper elementary. Often they do not pay for actual officials and the people they get do not know the rules well enough to enforce them and do not enforce sportsmanship. I try not to do very many games lower than high school, but when I do, I make sure to pregame sportsmanship and I enforce it much more rigidly than I do in upper levels. Teach them early I say. Most will adjust and realize that I'm not going to let them talk to me when their players need to be coached as they don't know how to play the game, but some will think they can complain. They don't stay long. One of my favorites was a 8th grade coach I had at some weekend tournaments last year. I had him 3 times and he got an unsportsmanlike from me in all 3 games. He just didn't understand that he was there to coach his kids not me. I set the tone early. He got his first T from me on the second possession of the first game. One of his kids went uncontrolled down the middle of the lane, making as much contact as he was recieving. After the rebound on our way the other direction, coach was standing, throwing his arms up complaining. He got to sit the rest of the game.
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