Ahhh.... This is the LIFE!!

[rainmaker]

4A Varsity Girls. Great partner. Friday night,full gym. Lots of noise, and hullabaloo. Not a great game, but we did a very good job. Called what needed to be called. Worked for angles. Reffed the defense. Talked to coaches. Beat the ball down the court. Watched off ball, called the illegal screens, the chucking the cutter. Kept the 4 fouls star in the game. Yes, Howard, I'm having fun!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Glad to see that you're so happy.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Kept the 4 fouls star in the game.

Juulie - I hope you don't mean what this might sound like you did.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Juulie - I hope you don't mean what this might sound like you did.

Mark -- I'm a "when in Rome" kinda gal. When I work for you, I do things your way. When I'm working with a partner who says, "Don't call anytnign cheap on (**). Make her 5th foul a good one" I work with him. Is that copping out? Maybe. I;m at the stage where I have enough control of myself that I can try different philosophies on for size and see what I think. If I find that I can't live with this stuff, I'll start limiting my games, taking only what I feel comfortable with.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by nine01c

I would be put off by my partner even saying this to me. Sorry, no special treatment for any player since I make calls as I see them. Maybe I'm not that good of a ref yet, but I am likely to not know that a player has 4 fouls (well, I might know but I don't care). Guess I would not make a good Roman.

I don't know why anyone would be put off by a partner who said this. Note that the partner didn't say to not call the fifth foul on the player. He/she just wanted to make sure it wasn't a cheapy. It's no different than me reminding my crew in the last few seconds of a tight game to have patient whistles. I'm not telling them to not blow their whistles, I'm just saying to not anticipate contact but rather to see contact, process contact and then make the call. Sure, it's what we should be doing all game long but participants in games tend to get the adrenaline flowing in that case and a little reminder never hurts, IMHO.

IMHO, it's good awareness on your partner's part to know that a player has 4..... no different than a good official knowing when a team has 6 or 9 fouls so you can give the proper number of free throws on your preliminary signal for the next common foul you call. Wouldn't you rather have your partner tell you to make the fifth foul be a good one rather than to foul out the player on a borderline push foul on a rebound that you could have easily passed on because team B got the rebound?

To me, it's nothing more than a reminder from your partner to have a patient whistle.

Z

[williebfree]

Last week I had a partner that came to me during a dead ball in mid-4th qtr and wanted me to know that... "#23 has 4 fouls. Don't call the 5th on her." I told him, "I call him the way the rules read."

After the dead ball, #23 was apparently involved in some contact while playing defense, (Crowd boo's) I did not see enough of the action because I was focused on my primary.

Ball comes to #23's FC and she drives hard and plows a legal-guarding defender. The defender had roots growing from her feet. I come out strong with the PC signal and my partner gives me "the hairy eyeball."

Post-game discussion was not very pleasant, but hopefully we worked through the issue.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by nine01c

I don't need a reminder in the situation you noted because I would not call the borderline push on a rebound when the other team got the ball (in the beginning of the game, or the end).

Come on, you have never made a call that you wished you had back?

Now how would you feel if that call, that will keep you up half the night, fouls out a player?

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by williebfree
Last week I had a partner that came to me during a dead ball in mid-4th qtr and wanted me to know that... "#23 has 4 fouls. Don't call the 5th on her." I told him, "I call him the way the rules read."

What your partner said is not the same as what Juulie's partner said. If my partner said "don't call the 5th on her", I'd stop just short of saying "go to hell". If my partner said "make sure the 5th one's a good one", I'd be nodding in agreement.

Juulie, stay the course - your partner's philosophy is a good one. As previously mentioned, no one's saying NOT to call the 5th, it's only a reminder to be extra-aware of having a patient whistle - using a particular player as a focal point. Good game management, IMO.

[Rich]

Originally posted by williebfree
Last week I had a partner that came to me during a dead ball in mid-4th qtr and wanted me to know that... "#23 has 4 fouls. Don't call the 5th on her." I told him, "I call him the way the rules read."

After the dead ball, #23 was apparently involved in some contact while playing defense, (Crowd boo's) I did not see enough of the action because I was focused on my primary.

Ball comes to #23's FC and she drives hard and plows a legal-guarding defender. The defender had roots growing from her feet. I come out strong with the PC signal and my partner gives me "the hairy eyeball."

Post-game discussion was not very pleasant, but hopefully we worked through the issue.

Tell your partner to go jump in a lake.

I try not to call "cheapies" in every situation. This crap about not calling a foul because the player is a star and has 4 puts the opposing team at a sever disadvantage. I'd be taking it to that player every trip down the floor (if I was the opposing coach) and it shouldn't take any more contact/disadvantage for foul number 1 as it does for foul number 5.

[Forksref]

I agree with Willie and Rich. I'd be pissed if my partner told me how to call the game.

[ace]

I never say anything specific about anyone... I've had some darn good partners as of late with actual pre-games! (unheard of sometimes at the sub-varsity level in houston)and I always say - Lets make our first foul a good one and lets make sure a players 5th is worthy of a 5th. Patient whistles, call the obvious and lets keep Adv/DisAdv in mind during the game, and make sure we stay in our primaries... Then we go back and nit pick whatever we need to.

I've had some partners that are like "make sure so and so stays in the game" when a co-official tells me how to call a game I give a smiling go take a long walk off of a short pier look and say - Lets just call it like we talked about and as we see it. I HATE adjusting to my partner, espcially if its ticky-tack and slows the game and takes the flow away from the players.. I've had several coaches say, I wish he'd adapt to you! about all I can do is just say "well coach, we are a team"

[Back In The Saddle]

Every player is entitled to five good fouls. Why should we be concerned about what Juulie's partner told her? How is that any different than much of the other communicating we do? I try to communicate with my partners any time (I notice that) we're in a situation where awareness could help us make a better call.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Why should we be concerned about what Juulie's partner told her? How is that any different than much of the other communicating we do? I try to communicate with my partners any time (I notice that) we're in a situation where awareness could help us make a better call.

[Mark Padgett]

When a partner tells you to make sure the 5th foul call on a specific player is a "good one" and not a "cheap one", IMO that partner is implying that at least one of the first four calls on that player were "cheap". After all, if all four foul calls on that player were "good ones", why would your partner be concerned about the fifth? The really bad part of a comment like that is what if that player does something again to a degree that required you to call a foul earlier? Do you become hesitant to call the foul now because you are worried that your partner might think it's "cheap"?

Call all fouls the same way from beginning to end regardless of how many fouls an individual player has and regardless of who an individual player is. Anything less than that is poor officiating and indication that you are spineless. Officials who are afraid to make a foul call because they are afraid of the reaction from coaches and fans shouldn't be officiating.

Now - I'll tell you how I really feel.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by nine01c


I see what you are saying but I took the initial post in a different way. Sounds like they were making an effort to not have a player get 5 fouls. It's up to the player not to get 5 fouls. Knowing when a team will be in the bonus on the next foul is different (to me) than being concerned if a player will be getting his 5th foul. I don't need a reminder in the situation you noted because I would not call the borderline push on a rebound when the other team got the ball (in the beginning of the game, or the end). Really, I get along fine with partners and have good communication. Guess it just rubs me the wrong way to have one tell me how I should or should not make my calls.

I am going to have to admittedly disagree with you. Knowledge is power. I want to know as much about the game as possible. I have no problem with knowing who the stars are and what their foul situation is. Whether you like it or not, what the stars do or do not do are going to be where the coach focuses his complaints and issues with the assignor. A D1 Officials told me awhile ago (and repeated it recently) that an officials should call the game for the tape. The tape is not going to lie. Maybe their recollection will probably fail, but the tape will not. So what Juulie's partner was saying is right on. If you foul out a player with a really cheap foul, the tape will just magnify that complaint about the rest of the game.

I had a game last night between some big rivals. There was a dedication ceremony before the game for an American Flag. The home team lost because one of my partners called a foul with .8 seconds left in the game on a rebounding foul. The foul was obvious and a player on the defensive end (home team player) goes flying in and clears out a pile. So the foul resulted in us going to the other end and shooting bonus FTs, which the player hit both and won the game. Nothing else is going to be remembered in that game except for that foul call. The game was tied and the coach kept saying, "Let the kids decide the game." So when this coach goes to the tape, he can look at what happen for sure. And what the tape shows will back up the case for the official that called the foul his two partners that worked with him.

To me that is good officiating. You can disagree with that assessment of what was said, I think it is good communication and does not nothing to add to the knowledge of the officials on the floor. If the officials call a foul on that player, the coach is going to complain anyway. At least you know what might be coming.

Peace