What would you call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

Similar sitch in an 8th grade boys game. Player mad about foul called, but he didn't wait to "fire" just did it right away, and I wasn't looking. At the last possible instant, I saw something out of the corner of my eye, and got my hand up to block the ball. If I hadn't, it would have hit me in the side of the face. He'd thrown it so hard, it left my hand red and stinging. Partner sprints in and handles kid. No T. I was appalled at the time, but whatever he said, it worked. [/B][/QUOTE]You shoulda been appalled after that one. Nowayinhell is that not a "T" when the little sh*t does something like that. It doesn't matter what level it is either. Your partner had no business letting the kid get away with crap like that, or taking over your call either before you could make one. Was your partner still gonna just warn the kid too if the kid hadda tried to bank one off of his head instead of your's? Does that mean that every player on the floor now gets a chance to play Extreme Dodgeball with the officiating crew? You haveta be consistent out there--if you're going to warn one player for that, then you have to warn all players for that too. And any coach that pays more than lip service to the idea of sportsmanship woulda had that player's butt on the bench mondo quicko also. Lah me!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Similar sitch in an 8th grade boys game. Player mad about foul called, but he didn't wait to "fire" just did it right away, and I wasn't looking. At the last possible instant, I saw something out of the corner of my eye, and got my hand up to block the ball. If I hadn't, it would have hit me in the side of the face. He'd thrown it so hard, it left my hand red and stinging. Partner sprints in and handles kid. No T. I was appalled at the time, but whatever he said, it worked. [/B]

You shoulda been appalled after that one. Nowayinhell is that not a "T" when the little sh*t does something like that. It doesn't matter what level it is either. Your partner had no business letting the kid get away with crap like that, or taking over your call either before you could make one. Was your partner still gonna just warn the kid too if the kid hadda tried to bank one off of his head instead of your's? Does that mean that every player on the floor now gets a chance to play Extreme Dodgeball with the officiating crew? You haveta be consistent out there--if you're going to warn one player for that, then you have to warn all players for that too. And any coach that pays more than lip service to the idea of sportsmanship woulda had that player's butt on the bench mondo quicko also. Lah me! [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know, Woody. I think if the next player HAD tried it, we'd have started whacking. But it didn't happen that way. This was a Christian school tournament, where I know things could get pretty bad, but they generally don't. I think since it worked, it was okay. I'm not sure I'd ever have the charisma to pull it off, but my partner clearly did. Also, kids coach pulled him for the rest of that half, but kid played in second half, and did fine.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You shoulda been appalled after that one. Nowayinhell is that not a "T" when the little sh*t does something like that. It doesn't matter what level it is either. Your partner had no business letting the kid get away with crap like that, or taking over your call either before you could make one. Was your partner still gonna just warn the kid too if the kid hadda tried to bank one off of his head instead of your's? Does that mean that every player on the floor now gets a chance to play Extreme Dodgeball with the officiating crew? You haveta be consistent out there--if you're going to warn one player for that, then you have to warn all players for that too. And any coach that pays more than lip service to the idea of sportsmanship woulda had that player's butt on the bench mondo quicko also. Lah me! [/B]

I don't know, Woody. I think if the next player HAD tried it, we'd have started whacking. But it didn't happen that way. This was a Christian school tournament, where I know things could get pretty bad, but they generally don't. I think since it worked, it was okay. I'm not sure I'd ever have the charisma to pull it off, but my partner clearly did. Also, kids coach pulled him for the rest of that half, but kid played in second half, and did fine. [/B][/QUOTE]How can you whack the next player for doing the exact same thing that you just warned another player about? If the next player that you whack happens to be on the opposing team, good luck on answering his coach when he asks you why his player doesn't get a warning and the opposing player did. Just because it worked that time doesn't mean that it will work in all situations. Jmo, Juulie, but I think that there's a lot more pluses in taking care of bidness right now in situations like this instead of saying "please don't do that again". And I think that it is a learning situation for the players and coaches out there too--i.e. unsporting acts will not be tolerated. Again, jmo.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
How can you whack the next player for doing the exact same thing that you just warned another player about?

4-46 gives three examples. Although your point about the next one being from the opposing team is a good one. I guess in general you're right. But it is an example of when something worked, even though it probably shouldn't have.

SO let me ask a question -- suppose this happens again. I'm ready to come up with the T, but partner sprints in and starts talking. What do I do now?

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by Smitty
What seems to be apparent in lots of the questions people write about when we're on the hairy edge of calling a T about something is we're concerned with what other people will think, namely other officials or evaluators who may be watching. I'm not referring to coaches/players/fans. That bugs me, as I feel the same way. I don't really know how to resolve this for myself, but I wish I just had more confidence not to care so much about what others will think and just do what I believe is the right thing to do in some of those iffy situations. You'd think I'd have figured it out after 12 years...

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 7th, 2005 at 12:48 PM]

Actually Smitty, this never even crossed my mind. I try to give the kids the benefit of the doubt unless they show me they don't deserve it, and the fact we hadn't really had any problems with either team up to this point was probably the deciding factor in letting it go. My mistake - next time I'll know better.......

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

4-46 gives three examples. Although your point about the next one being from the opposing team is a good one. I guess in general you're right. But it is an example of when something worked, even though it probably shouldn't have.

SO let me ask a question -- suppose this happens again. I'm ready to come up with the T, but partner sprints in and starts talking. What do I do now?

Excuse me for jumping in here...I happened to be walking past the cool kids table on my way to the A/V room and I couldn't help overhearing...

What you do now is blow the whistle and calmy raise your right hand such that the tips of those fingers make contact with the palm of your left hand. What else would you do?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Also, it's not a USC technical, it's a technical for delaying the game.

So does that make it a UCLA technical?

[Junker]

I would be in agreement that the T would be well deserved, but depending on the game situation couldn't you talk to the kid about his body language? If this was the first sign of trouble in the game I think I would be apt to tell the kid to watch his body language as it very well could be viewed as unsportsmanlike. Then he's had his warning and is on the short leash for the rest of the game. Just a suggestion.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by TimTaylor

Actually Smitty, this never even crossed my mind. I try to give the kids the benefit of the doubt unless they show me they don't deserve it, and the fact we hadn't really had any problems with either team up to this point was probably the deciding factor in letting it go. My mistake - next time I'll know better.......

Sorry Tim, I actually wasn't trying to make a comment regarding your initial post specifically. More as a general feeling I get on some of these iffy calls and when I read other people mentioning these judgement situations where we could handle things in one of many ways, a T being one of them.

I think my personal frustration boils down to a situation last season, my first in the PBOA, where I had a Boy's JV game and the visiting coach was complaining, I gave him the stop sign and he continued to complain so I whacked him. At halftime, one of the varsity refs follows my partner and me into our room and starts lambasting me about T-ing up the coach. He's telling me I had no business calling the T. I was stunned, as I have never had this happen to me before, let alone at halftime of my game. So I'm trying to explain why I did it, come to find out the guy was standing on the far side of the court, next to the bleachers when this happened - in other words about as far away from where my T occurred as possible. He admitted he didn't see what led up to the call, nor did he hear what the coach had said. He just read me the riot act. My partner backed me up 100% to this guy. It shook me up and I couldn't focus very well for the second half.

So even though this was an isolated event, it shook me up and I can only hope it never happens again. Now that I'm more familiar with the association - this was the only guy I have met that has been anything less than great to work with or be around - I would handle it a lot differently if anyone pulls that crap again.

[thumpferee]

I have to add one of my experiences here to get yours responses. I would also like to add this was my first year officiating in 200.

Men's league. I can still remember this like it was yesterday.

Late in the game, I call a PC foul on this one guy. He stares at me still holding the ball, and with two hands fires a chest pass from about ten feet away toward my head. I catch it cause I have skills,lol. Anyway, PSST!

I T him up. As I go report, he walks toward me with that disgusted look in his eye and his arms outward as to say, "WTF" from about 5 feet away from me coming closer. I stop and put my hands up ready to knock this guy out. Yeah I know!

You know the rest, he's gone. On hes way out of the gym, he says I'll be waiting for you outside, after the game went outside, no show!

[Junker]

Smitty,
Everyone has a little different view on what they will call unsportsmanlike. It sounds like the T you gave was justified. I wouldn't let the comments of an official not working the game shake you. I'm sure almost everyone on the forum would agree that lower level coaches are allowed far less leeway to question officials than varsity coaches. As you gain more experience, you'll have a better feel for what you deem unsportsmanlike. Let the varsity official enforce his view in his game and you work yours. I know from my own personal experience, my first year I put up with more crap than I should have, my third year I probably threw a couple of T's I shouldn't have, but now I have better game management skills and know when I have to give the T and when I can talk to coaches and players instead.

[Smitty]

I agree with everything you said. It shook me mainly because it occurred at halftime of my game. They guy should have mentioned it at the end of the game, or not at all would have been even better. I don't mind someone questioning my judgement - I am open to contructive criticism, but this guy was just an arrogant a$$ and his comments had no redeeming value, especially after he admitted he didn't even hear the exchange between myself and the coach. It was difficult as well because it was my first year in the association and I was trying to make a good impression and get a feel for everyone and all the coaches in the area.

Those arrogant "veterans" are what burned me out at my last association (Bay Area, CA). I was on the cusp of becoming a varsity official, but I found out that in order to get there, I would have to hang out with these guys on Friday nights at their favorite bar and generally suck up to the politics. I also witnessed one of those arrogant a$$es rip apart one of my partners for a call he had made in a game. That just turned officiating into no fun anymore for me, so I took a 5 year sabbatical until last year.

Just last night after my JV game, one of the top officials in our association was getting dressed to work the V game as we came down into the room after our game. He asked if we were staying to watch his game and if so, to please come into the room at halftime and let him know what we thought of the first half. He was genuinely interested in our comments so he could continue to get better. Talk about a class act.

[Chess Ref]

Junkers comments about learning game management skills ring true to me. I have had two coaches I should have T. They weren't F bombs but just a constant commentary that went over the line. At the time no idea how to handle the running comments. So I posted a thread and got some good ideas about the progression that this should take. So now at least i have a clue about whats the first step and what should follow.

[LepTalBldgs]

If I get hit in the head by a ball during a dead ball I had better hear my partners whistle BEFORE the ball hits me. 'Cause he had better have seen the play developing and whacked the player.

If he doesn't whack 'em, I'm probably too dazed or dumbfounded to do it. Either that or I'm looking at my partner for two reasons: 1) why didn't you whack the fool, or 2) point to the offender so I can whack 'em.

In my book there's zero room for a ref being hit by anything.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

SO let me ask a question -- suppose this happens again. I'm ready to come up with the T, but partner sprints in and starts talking. What do I do now? [/B][/QUOTE]

What you do now is blow the whistle and calmy raise your right hand such that the tips of those fingers make contact with the palm of your left hand. What else would you do?


[/B][/QUOTE]Amen. And then have a little talk to your partner after the game about you being a big girl now and being able to handle what comes your way. I certainly don't have a problem with my partner jumping in with a "T" before I get a chance to, but anything else is sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. What he did might be OK with a rookie or weak official that he's trying to maybe protect a little, but it's out of line to do something like that with an experienced partner.