Sportsmanship and language

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

= 2nd direct technical foul on the head coach and disqualification.
Your nicer than I am.

Probably. But before I give a second direct technical foul I want to make sure he really deserved it. This was borderline, so he got a pass. I didn't even look in his direction.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by gordon30307
I'm only addressing the issue at hand flagrant fouls etc. are entirley different. Please note I specifically said with 1 or 2 minutes remaining and with a running clock "I may or may not here that remark." We're talking about words. You know sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

As an aside I recall a similar situation lopsided score etc. losing coach behaving himself the whole game made a disparaging mark directed toward me and I'm not sure if anyone else heard it. I said "Coach I didn't hear what you said do you mind repeating it?" If he did I would have Teed him he didn't and I had no more problems. He knew I gave him a pass and that he was out of line.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Dec 31st, 2004 at 03:48 PM]

I agree with Gordon on this -- there are times to not T an unsporting remark -- but it should still be addressed. "Coach, if I have to stay here to watch the rest of this, so do you."

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by gordon30307
You know sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

I can't let this go unchallenged. Words can hurt. Words can kill. The rules let us judge words as unsportsmanlike for a reason. Words DO matter. I've seen situations where I wished it was sticks and stones instead of words that were being thrown. If you really think words aren't as strong as sticks and stones, sit through a day or two in the office of the principal of an elementary school. I can only hope you haven't raised children.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I can't let this go unchallenged. Words can hurt. Words can kill. The rules let us judge words as unsportsmanlike for a reason. Words DO matter. I've seen situations where I wished it was sticks and stones instead of words that were being thrown. If you really think words aren't as strong as sticks and stones, sit through a day or two in the office of the principal of an elementary school. I can only hope you haven't raised children.

Stop yourself. We're not talking about kids. I'm an adult I can handle it. Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Words can hurt. Words can kill.

Words may hurt a person's feelings. But words don't kill. Words may incite someone to kill. But the person is responsible for his/her actions, not the words.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Words may hurt a person's feelings. But words don't kill. Words may incite someone to kill. But the person is responsible for his/her actions, not the words.

Words kill the spirit, which may not legally the same as killing the body, but it's tantamount to the same thing in the existential realities of life. Personally, I'd rather lose my body than my spirit. I know this is off-topic for this baord, and it seems like a small thing to people who haven't been killed in spirit. But I just can't stand to hear people justify themselves or others in damaging someone with words.

Gordon, you say you're an "adult" and can handle it. Fine. You still need to recognize that there are others who aren't and can't, and when you say "words can never hurt me" you are condoning the kind of damage that makes a person give up hope and lose all faith. That may not be what you meant to say, but there are people out there who hear that. It's better not to say it at all.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Words kill the spirit, which may not legally the same as killing the body, but it's tantamount to the same thing in the existential realities of life. Personally, I'd rather lose my body than my spirit. I know this is off-topic for this baord, and it seems like a small thing to people who haven't been killed in spirit. But I just can't stand to hear people justify themselves or others in damaging someone with words.

Gordon, you say you're an "adult" and can handle it. Fine. You still need to recognize that there are others who aren't and can't, and when you say "words can never hurt me" you are condoning the kind of damage that makes a person give up hope and lose all faith. That may not be what you meant to say, but there are people out there who hear that. It's better not to say it at all.

Stop yourself. Now you're being silly.

[PS2Man]

I do not know if words hurt people. I do know that a lot of people react seriously to what people say. If words did not hurt people, then I do not understand why some people get all turned around when someone gives an opinion on this site. Words must mean something. I know I will not just say anything to someone because I can.

[refnrev]

Rich,
I don't get it. Why didn't you whack him the second time. He was clearly asking for it. Give him his walking papers. If he wants to be a total jacka** that's his business, but send him the message that he can't do it in your ball game

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Stop yourself. Now you're being silly.

I do most seriously hope you aren't raising children.

[Rich]

Originally posted by refnrev
Rich,
I don't get it. Why didn't you whack him the second time. He was clearly asking for it. Give him his walking papers. If he wants to be a total jacka** that's his business, but send him the message that he can't do it in your ball game

If I run him in a HS varsity game, it had better be for an infraction where the state office looks at the report and says: Yup, that was a no brainer.

What gets a coach a first technical isn't necessarily enough to warrant #2. This is just my opinion, of course. Plus, getting waxed 49-14 at the half buys the coach a little more slack in my world.

He was better after being seated on the bench in the second half. The last 14 minutes of game clock ran out without incident.

--Rich

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I do most seriously hope you aren't raising children.

Good grief !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
What gets a coach a first technical isn't necessarily enough to warrant #2. This is just my opinion, of course.
--Rich

Rich,
From reading your posts on forum I am convinced that you are a quality official and that you care about the game. So I will prevail upon you to reconsider this way of thinking. It seems backward and counterproductive to me.

I believe that the coach should behave better, not worse, after receiving his first technical foul. By stating that it takes more for you to give a coach his second T than his first, you are admitting that you will allow that coach to act even worse after he has been T'd. This can't be good for the game.

Almost everyone agrees that the technical foul should make the game better, and that starts with the coach's behavior.
He should now be seated for the rest of the game, and should be clearly aware that any more of the behavior that earned him his first technical foul will not be tolerated.
Why would we as officials want to send any message other than that to a coach?

You are probably subject to pressure from the local leagues, state office, and how the other officials from where you are do things, but would I certainly hope that all of them would be striving for good sportsmanship in high school athletics. Maybe you could lead the way.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Rich,
From reading your posts on forum I am convinced that you are a quality official and that you care about the game. So I will prevail upon you to reconsider this way of thinking. It seems backward and counterproductive to me.

I believe that the coach should behave better, not worse, after receiving his first technical foul. By stating that it takes more for you to give a coach his second T than his first, you are admitting that you will allow that coach to act even worse after he has been T'd. This can't be good for the game.

Almost everyone agrees that the technical foul should make the game better, and that starts with the coach's behavior.
He should now be seated for the rest of the game, and should be clearly aware that any more of the behavior that earned him his first technical foul will not be tolerated.
Why would we as officials want to send any message other than that to a coach?

You are probably subject to pressure from the local leagues, state office, and how the other officials from where you are do things, but would I certainly hope that all of them would be striving for good sportsmanship in high school athletics. Maybe you could lead the way.

I see your point, but keep in mind that the coach didn't act WORSE after the first technical, he just didn't act like an angel right away. The most egregious act was the one he got whacked for and my partner did the whacking. It was the right thing to do at the time.

Right after this it was halftime. We had a long discussion about how we were going to proceed at halftime. We decided that *I* would be the one who would give him the second one, if it came to that.

I guess I was a little loose with the language in my previous post. Had the coach did the same thing that got him the first technical a second time, he would've been ejected. What I was saying is that there are some technicals that are borderline calls (my partner usually makes those calls )-- you certainly don't want to eject over one of those.

I've ejected two coaches (one varsity, one JV) in 17 years. One was a coach who came after me in the locker room at halftime. The second was in the second quarter of a Christian school game and the coach got the first one about a minute into the game and the second one after accusing us of being homers.

I have no problems with technical fouls and using them where appropriate, but the longer I do this the less we get to that point. Part of this, I'm convinced is that I don't work games below HS varsity. Most of the really egregious behavior I see is in the subvarsity game before my own. Many of these situations is because the officials aren't experienced enough to communicate with the coaches properly and situations just escalate.

I love this conversation, though, because I'm always looking for a better way to manage game situations -- avoiding bad situations wherever possible.

--Rich

[tomegun]

IMHO the first T should have been automatic. No questions. From Rich's post the coach could have got a second T from me. Waving off an official to their back can be caught on tape and seen from the top row. Depending on the situation I might not have let that pass if you were my partner and this happened to you.
I don't agree with designating who would give the second T. There is a place for this but I was in a situation last week where a coach made a personal attack on one of my partners and my other partner was about to move in for a T. I made eye contact with him so he would stay where he was. The partner that was being attacked NEEDED to be the one to do it. The same thing happened with an even more personal attack from the same coach and he got whacked again. I don't see anything wrong with the same person giving both Ts in this situation. The coach made it personal. I guess there is some recent history there but the coach was clearly wrong. The coach tried to come onto the floor after my partner and I told the guy at the table to give me some time on the clock so the coach had ample time to remove himself before the game was a forfeit. The behavior of the coach and players is playing too big a role in what we do. It is horrible and everytime we give someone a "pass" it makes it harder on the next officials. I'm not pointing fingers because I have given some passes that I shouldn't have. I have also thrown a coach out this year that deserved it. I don't know where Rich lives but one problem is states where a coach plays a part in what games officials get. That is dead wrong. We are already working uphill when a coach has this power. Home court advantage takes on a whole new meaning. To some extent I think we need to take the game back!

Also, I'm with Rainmaker. The wrong words can put someone in the tank rather than keeping them out of the tank. The same way we worry about communication with coaches we need to worry about communication with our crew. That goes for anything that is said to a memeber of our crew (by a player, coach, AD or fan) that could effect them during and after the game.