The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 12:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
In another thread, Smitty told of an unpleasant encounter with a varsity coach during a JV game. The varsity coach was being obnoxious and inflammatory from the stands. Since the Var coach was not on the team bench, Smitty was uncertain how to handle the vituperation. Several of us here on the baord recommended that Smitty should get the game management to toss the Var coach who was acting like a jerk. In the end, Smitty was told to ignore the coach but report the behavior to the assignor, who dealt with the coach through the AD.

It reminded me of a similar situation here in Smitty's home locale where a ref actually did toss a fanboy coach. Here's the summary. JV girls game -- best girls program in three states is the home team playing against someone else (who it was doesn't matter). This ref is a real problem around here. He is overly officious, has a quick temper, and talks too much.

So as this game goes on, the varsity coach who was sitting in the stands lost his cool and started yelling at the ref. Ref claims coach came down out of the stands and onto the floor to yell at him, other witnesses disagree. Ref T'd him and tossed him.

But here comes the juicy part -- the ref insisted that this coach couldn't come back into the gym to coach the varsity game. He said that once someone is tossed, they're out for the evening, and can't come back in for any reason. Varsity coach used a friend's cell phone (standing outside on the sidewalk in front of his own gym!!) called the assignor and talked to him about it. The assignor called the ref and told him to let the coach coach.

This story made the paper because this is one of the biggest hs girls' coaches in the country, and has made a hugely successful in his little suburb.

In Smitty's thread about his situation, someone responded that Smitty should toss the Var coach from the stands (remember this is druing the JV game, so coach is just a spectator), and then the Varsity game would be nice and quiet since that coach wouldn't be there. What is the rule here? In the sitch I described, the assignor (who has been on the Fed rules committee any number of years and knows the rules inside and out) says the Var coach can come back in and do the var game.

Is there any rule about this?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 12:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,592
Without haveing my books handy to look at, i understand that if Varsity Coach was on the bench during JV game and got run, he also has to sit out the next JV game but his getting run has nothing to do with the Varsity game and he can coach it. I know that tossing a fan is different. I've had to enlist in game managements help and simply asked him to sit by the unruly fan and maybe have a little discussion. The fan piped down and we finished the game peacefully. This might have been an option for Smitty.
__________________
Do you ever feel like your stuff strutted off without you?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 12:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref

I believe the only penalty defined in the book that extend beyond the game in question is for fighting. Because what happens to the coach in this case is not defined by the rule book it is outside of the floor official's jurisdiction to decide what, if any, additional penalty will be on the coach who gets tossed as a fan.

IOO when the buzzer goes off you buzz off.

Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,856
Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
This ref is a real problem around here. He is overly officious, has a quick temper, and talks too much.
...you know, you really shouldn't be talking about Mr. Padgett that way rainmaker.

__________________
Dan Ivey
Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA)
Member since 1989
Richland, WA
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:07pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Without haveing my books handy to look at, i understand that if Varsity Coach was on the bench during JV game and got run, he also has to sit out the next JV game but his getting run has nothing to do with the Varsity game and he can coach it. I know that tossing a fan is different. I've had to enlist in game managements help and simply asked him to sit by the unruly fan and maybe have a little discussion. The fan piped down and we finished the game peacefully. This might have been an option for Smitty.
It's different in IL (might be that way in your state). But if a V coach is on the bench and he get tossed. He cannot coach any games until he has sit out at least 1 JV game or 10 days.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
It's different in IL (might be that way in your state). But if a V coach is on the bench and he get tossed. He cannot coach any games until he has sit out at least 1 JV game or 10 days.
The rules question is whether that applies to a coach who's not on the bench, but in the stands.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
...Smitty was uncertain how to handle the vituperation.

Several of us here on the baord recommended...
Wow...you nailed vituperation but missed on board.

Sorry, just struct me as funny
__________________
I didn't say it was your fault...I said I was going to blame you.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:28pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
I think this is all handled at the state association level, with regard to suspensions. I've not read anything in the book to tell me that there are any NFHS penalties beyond the game at hand.
I know in Iowa, if he were considered to be on the JV bench and he got run, he'd have to sit out all games until he missed the next JV game. If there are no more JV games left this year, he doesn't get to coach until next year.
Personally, if I run a guy in one game as a fan, and he's coaching in the next; now I get to deal with him as a coach. That's much easier than dealing with him as a fan. I'm okay with that.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Without haveing my books handy to look at, i understand that if Varsity Coach was on the bench during JV game and got run, he also has to sit out the next JV game but his getting run has nothing to do with the Varsity game and he can coach it. I know that tossing a fan is different. I've had to enlist in game managements help and simply asked him to sit by the unruly fan and maybe have a little discussion. The fan piped down and we finished the game peacefully. This might have been an option for Smitty.
It's different in IL (might be that way in your state). But if a V coach is on the bench and he get tossed. He cannot coach any games until he has sit out at least 1 JV game or 10 days.
So what are you going to do tjonesy, as an official, when the V coach shows up to coach the Varsity game?
(after being ejected from the bench in the previous JV game)

[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 9th, 2004 at 01:34 PM]
__________________
Dan Ivey
Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA)
Member since 1989
Richland, WA
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
This is similar to a player playing 3 quarters in the JV game and then playing 2 quarters in the varsity game. Not our problem. We ref the players and coaches who show up and then let the state take care of any eligibility issues of those who played or coached in the game.

So the ref in the original post made two dumb mistakes. One, he tossed the coach in the stands rather than having game management handle it. Two, he overstepped his bounds by determining who was eligible to coach.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 01:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 480
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Without haveing my books handy to look at, i understand that if Varsity Coach was on the bench during JV game and got run, he also has to sit out the next JV game but his getting run has nothing to do with the Varsity game and he can coach it. I know that tossing a fan is different. I've had to enlist in game managements help and simply asked him to sit by the unruly fan and maybe have a little discussion. The fan piped down and we finished the game peacefully. This might have been an option for Smitty.
It's different in IL (might be that way in your state). But if a V coach is on the bench and he get tossed. He cannot coach any games until he has sit out at least 1 JV game or 10 days.

How is this enforced? Do you file a report to the state office?
__________________
"We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done."
Chris Z.
Detroit/SE Michigan
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
This ref is a real problem around here. He is overly officious, has a quick temper, and talks too much.
Juulie,

And I had the unfortunate experience of working a JV game with him last season....he hasn't mellowed any. Catch me at a meeting sometime & I'll tell you the story.....
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 02:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by TimTaylor
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
This ref is a real problem around here. He is overly officious, has a quick temper, and talks too much.
Juulie,

And I had the unfortunate experience of working a JV game with him last season....he hasn't mellowed any. Catch me at a meeting sometime & I'll tell you the story.....
Everybody's got a story about working with him. The sad thing is, he doesn't understand why his schedule is so poor. He thinks he's all that and a bag of chips, and thinks it's his religion that makes people prejudice against him. I'll tell you who I feel most sorry for is his wife. I can't imagine, uh...living ... yea, let's say living... with that guy.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 02:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,476
Wow, this is lot of words.

I'm one of those that said toss him.

But understand, he wasn't coaching. He was a fan during the poor behavior. And as a fan, he was likely allowed more leniency than a 'regular' fan because he was also recognized as being a coach.

If you kick a fan out, I think it is generally accepted that they are gone for the evening. End of punishment. But of course this is enforced by game/facility management - they will likely be willing to let the 'coach' back in to next the game.

Kick out a coach different story. Here are the rules from backwoods Idaho (with pieces missing) for ejection of a coach. You can see them in their entirety at: http://idhsaa.org/rulesregs/home.asp under General Rules and Regulations, Section 4-3.

Here are the high points:
In any athletic contest, ... any coach ... ejected by an official for unsportsmanlike behavior will be suspended for the remainder of the Contest ... and, will be suspended for the next regularly scheduled contest at that level of competition and all other games/meets/matches in the interim at any level of competition. ...

The responsibility of enforcing the penalty for being suspended is with the school principal. Any dialogue concerning the suspension should come from the school principal and be directed to the President of the District Board of Control.

...The game official that disqualifies an individual for an unsportsmanship-like act must notify the District Commissioner with a written report by the conclusion of the next day. The District Commissioner, upon receipt of the report, shall notify the District Secretary, President of the District Board of Control, the school, and the IHSAA with a written report of the incident by the conclusion of the next school day.
When an individual is suspended for the next contest under Rule 4-3, the interpretation of contest is referred to as the following: ...

Basketball: next game

4-4 If a coach is ejected from an IHSAA contest, the designated school administrator must appoint an appropriately qualified adult to supervise the remainder of the contest or forfeit the contest.


Of course none of this paperwork stuff is done for ejection of a fan. In the case cited by Juulie, the fan/coach calls the Commissioner; Commissioner tells the official to stand down; fan re-enters the contest now as a coach.

In my opinion, it's got to be pretty bad stuff to eject the fan/coach. But two fans, all alone in the stands on one side of the court; standing, pointing, and yelling at an official would be impossible to ignore, and again in my opinion meets the definition of "pretty bad stuff."

Whether he stays out for the next game... I don't know. I personally wouldn't stick around to find out and I sure wouldn't be enforcing anything. Perhaps the game management would feel the same way as did the official and keep the coach out in the cold. Perhaps not.
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 09, 2004, 02:31pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by LarryS
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
...Smitty was uncertain how to handle the vituperation.

Several of us here on the baord recommended...
Wow...you nailed vituperation but missed on board.

Sorry, just struct me as funny
That kinda struck me as funny too.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:41am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1