Maybe Artest isn't THAT bad--

[rotationslim]

Count your blessings.. be glad that you don't ref overseas-- Artest would be a choir-boy over there, apperantly:

(I thought we, the US, was the center of all bad things in the world... maybe not)

From today's (11-29-04) Detroit News:

Overseas fighting

wilder than in NBA

Though the American sporting public was shocked and disgusted by the fight between players and fans at The Palace, those who have played basketball overseas say they have seen much worse.

Cavaliers guard Jeff McInnis said he spent a season in Greece that he will never forget. He said fans threw so many objects at players during games that teams had to sit in a courtside dugout, similar to what baseball teams occupy.

"I saw a fan die at a game," McInnis said. "The fans were fighting, and this guy got trampled and had a heart attack and died. In those games overseas, fans would throw things and threaten you. Fans would heat coins with a lighter and then throw it at you."

Another Cavaliers guard, Sasha Pavlovic, said the events at The Palace were commonplace during games in his home country of Serbia-Montenegro.

"Every security guard in my country carries a machine gun because something always happens during every big game in my country," he said.

[thumpferee]

I am an American living overseas in Europe (Germany), and I still think Artest is an A#$$$%%. I just wish it was me in the stands he came at! He should have been kicked out of the NBA last year!

Germany and other European Countries in general have a much better appreciation for the game of basketball than we do who take the game for granted. Example: 04 Olympics!

JMO

[rotationslim]

FYI, my title line was sarcastic--- Arest is a punk...

And it is comforting to know the problems we face with violence and imature behavior are not unique to Basketball... or even these "violent" United States... but merely the human condition.

As to quality of ball in US vs. Europe... haven't been over there lately, can't comment.

[JRutledge]

A man has the right to be treated with dignity. Just because you are a basketball player and you make a lot of money, does not absolve them from being treated with dignity. If this was any other situation, Artest behavior would have been expected and understandable. But for some reason because they are professional basketball players, we expect them to behave differently than any other part of society. I am just surprised this has not happen more often than it did the other week.

If Artest would have seriously injured the individual, I bet any fan would think twice about throwing things at players during a basketball game. I guess the players are slaves and gladiators that deserve any type of treatment and the masters are suppose to do whatever they like because they pay money.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by JRutledge
A man has the right to be treated with dignity. Just because you are a basketball player and you make a lot of money, does not absolve them from being treated with dignity. If this was any other situation, Artest behavior would have been expected and understandable. But for some reason because they are professional basketball players, we expect them to behave differently than any other part of society. I am just surprised this has not happen more often than it did the other week.

If Artest would have seriously injured the individual, I bet any fan would think twice about throwing things at players during a basketball game. I guess the players are slaves and gladiators that deserve any type of treatment and the masters are suppose to do whatever they like because they pay money.

Peace

Rut - with all due respect (and I mean that literally), what a bunch of crap.

[jbduke]

Mark,

That a way to foster civilized discourse. Don't respond directly and thoughtfully to a person's ideas, just tell him that his ideas are garbage.

Rut, here are my two cents.
---------------------------------------
Last night I went to the symphony. The first-chair violinist was really, really stinking it up through the first two-thirds of the concert. I was in the lobby of the concert hall during the second intermission when I noticed a man having a spirited discussion with his wife over how the aforementioned violinist was so bad that he was ruining the whole evening for the patron. He was clearly drunk, as exhibited by his red face and loud, boisterous demeanor.

Near the end of the concert, I happened to spy the drunkard in the audience, sitting only a few rows from the orchestra pit. Just after I noticed the man, he stood up, began booing loudly, and sloshed the contents of a champagne glass onto to the object of his disgust, the violinist. Upon feeling the spiritous shower, the violinist sprang from his seat in the pit, then clumsily hurdled the two rows between him and his assailant. When he reached the stunned patron, he (thirty-ish) put the fifty-ish man in a headlock and pounded on his face for three strokes before dropping him, his body collapsing onto the lap of his mortified wife seated adjacently.

Witnesses sitting in the immediate vicinity of the incident said that the wife of the man was heard to apologize to the musician as he dusted himself off and returned to the orchestra pit.

-------------------------
I told this story to a class of 12th grade government students today, more than a week after the Artest incident. I was not at all amazed at how much more sympathetic they were to the violinist in this story than they were toward Artest when we talked about that a week ago. I'll leave it to the individual to decide where the relevant differences lie; I know where they lie for my students.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jbduke
Mark,

That a way to foster civilized discourse. Don't respond directly and thoughtfully to a person's ideas, just tell him that his ideas are garbage.

Rut, here are my two cents.
---------------------------------------
Last night I went to the symphony. The first-chair violinist was really, really stinking it up through the first two-thirds of the concert. I was in the lobby of the concert hall during the second intermission when I noticed a man having a spirited discussion with his wife over how the aforementioned violinist was so bad that he was ruining the whole evening for the patron. He was clearly drunk, as exhibited by his red face and loud, boisterous demeanor.

Near the end of the concert, I happened to spy the drunkard in the audience, sitting only a few rows from the orchestra pit. Just after I noticed the man, he stood up, began booing loudly, and sloshed the contents of a champagne glass onto to the object of his disgust, the violinist. Upon feeling the spiritous shower, the violinist sprang from his seat in the pit, then clumsily hurdled the two rows between him and his assailant. When he reached the stunned patron, he (thirty-ish) put the fifty-ish man in a headlock and pounded on his face for three strokes before dropping him, his body collapsing onto the lap of his mortified wife seated adjacently.

Witnesses sitting in the immediate vicinity of the incident said that the wife of the man was heard to apologize to the musician as he dusted himself off and returned to the orchestra pit.

-------------------------
I told this story to a class of 12th grade government students today, more than a week after the Artest incident. I was not at all amazed at how much more sympathetic they were to the violinist in this story than they were toward Artest when we talked about that a week ago. I'll leave it to the individual to decide where the relevant differences lie; I know where they lie for my students.

Gee, great story. However, I think that the relevant differences to the actual Artest situation really lies in the fact that that the violinist didn't go into the audience and beat the crap out of the violinist's wife or some other innocent bystander- like Artest did. I wonder how sympathetic your kids would have been if the violinist hadda done that, instead of getting the actual assailant.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by jbduke
Mark,

That a way to foster civilized discourse. Don't respond directly and thoughtfully to a person's ideas, just tell him that his ideas are garbage.

You can't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. NYAH, NYAH, NYAH!!!

How's that for civilized discourse?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by jbduke
I told this story to a class of 12th grade government students today, more than a week after the Artest incident. I was not at all amazed at how much more sympathetic they were to the violinist in this story than they were toward Artest when we talked about that a week ago.

The thing that amazes me is that they were sympathetic at all to the violinist. I thought the point of your tale was to show Rut that Artest's behavior would not be acceptable, even in a different setting (contrary to his explicit claim).

You want us to conclude that it's ok for a concert violinist to vault into the audience and pummel a drunk concert-goer?!?!

How about this story? Girl in a bar is told by a male patron that her fashion sense stinks. She's deeply insulted (or perhaps merely drunk). She throws her drink in the guy's face. The guy then beats the girl. How sympathetic is that guy?

Have we reached the point in our society where getting wet gives one a license to commit bodily injury? Unbelievable.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have refrained from making comments about the Pacers-Pistons incident of a few weeks ago, but I think that it is time for me to say something.

Nobody was correct in the "riot" that occured at the end of the game: Not the players and not the fans.'

I know that many of you have heard me state that officiating is a profession masquerading as a avocation and that statement is still correct. BUT, sports in all of its shapes and forms is NOT important in the scheme of things on this small Class M planet whose society is ranked as a Category 0 (Zero).

We play sports because games are a fun pastime. Please do not tell me that whatever supposed contributions to society made by sports can even compare to the contributions made to society by police officers, teachers, college professors, doctors, dentists, and nurses to name.

We have become a society where good manners and respect for our fellow humans has become non-existent. I too have favorite sports teams: Liberty Leopards (my H.S. alma mater in Youngstown, Ohio), Youngstown State Unviersity (my college alma mater) and The Ohio State University are a few of my favorite teams, BUT I did not riot in the streets each of the four times that YSU won the NCAA Div. I-AA football championship, nor did I go berserk if an official failed to call what I thought was pass interference committed against by beloved YSU Penquins.

I recall the story that Bill Russell has told when a father wanted his son to grow up like him. Bill asked him: What is wrong with his son growing up like his father?

We can't have a civilized politcal campaign where the issues that will affect our country's future are discussed. Instead, we have political operatives that use 30 second sound bites to put out mis-information about political opponenets that have nothing to do with the issues.

What happened in Detroit that night is just another example of both fans and athletes (including coaches) have no self control.

I am sorry if I am rambling here, but my better half and I work hard to teach our sons about life and how to live their lives and then we have athletes and fans act like real idiots on national television no less.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett


Rut - with all due respect (and I mean that literally), what a bunch of crap.

No Mark. With all due respect, I did not post my comments for your approval. So you can think it is a loud of crap all you want, but I am not the only one that feels that way.

Remember Mark, I am not of your age group. I am not of your racial background. I do not share your values. So you disagreeing with me is like someone that was outraged over Super Bowl Halftime show. It might add some spice to the discussion, but it was not meant to find agreement.

As I stated before in the previous post, if more players went up in the stands and kicked the behinds of fans that threw things at them, they might think twice the next time.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The thing that amazes me is that they were sympathetic at all to the violinist. I thought the point of your tale was to show Rut that Artest's behavior would not be acceptable, even in a different setting (contrary to his explicit claim).

You want us to conclude that it's ok for a concert violinist to vault into the audience and pummel a drunk concert-goer?!?!

Not at all Chuck. I think what jdDuke is saying is that you cannot treat anybody anyway and not expect they are always going to turn the other cheek. I have read for the past week all this talk about how Artest is a bad guy and he should have never done what he did. But what about the fans and their behavior? What about the actions of individuals that think that because they pay money to go to a game, they can act in any manner, no matter how disrespectful they are. I know if I go to a store and the clerk does not do something I do not like. I do not throw something at them. And I sure would expect some kind of reaction from someone in that case. Maybe they would lose their job, but I still would treat them with dignity and common respect. Whether that would be cursing at them or calling them a name to embarrass them. I would not do that because for the most part they would be doing their job. If they are not doing their job, I do not go back to that store or I complain to a manager or headquarters of that job.

Originally posted by ChuckElias
How about this story? Girl in a bar is told by a male patron that her fashion sense stinks. She's deeply insulted (or perhaps merely drunk). She throws her drink in the guy's face. The guy then beats the girl. How sympathetic is that guy?

"Nobody is beyond an a@@ whoopin."---Chris Rock.

If the girl did not want her *** beat, she should not have thrown her drink at anybody. Where I am from, it would not be the guy that beats her behind, it would be the women closest to that man at that time (girlfriend, wife, and friend).

I know I would not have much sympathy for a person that threw a drink and in return got their behind kicked as a result. But that is me. I do know this, I know not to call a woman out of her name in a public place and expect no one is going to confront me. I do know that very well. I might have to deal with her boyfriend or man closest to her.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JRutledge

No Mark. With all due respect, I did not post my comments for your approval. So you can think it is a loud of crap all you want, but I am not the only one that feels that way.

Remember Mark, I am not of your age group. I am not of your racial background. I do not share your values. So you disagreeing with me is like someone that was outraged over Super Bowl Halftime show. It might add some spice to the discussion, but it was not meant to find agreement.

As I stated before in the previous post, if more players went up in the stands and kicked the behinds of fans that threw things at them, they might think twice the next time.

Peace

Since when does one's age, skin color, hair color, eye color, or from what country one's grandparents came, have to do would good manners and civil behavior.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Since when does one's age, skin color, hair color, eye color, or from what country one's grandparents came, have to do would good manners and civil behavior.

MTD, Sr.

It will do you no good Mark.

In an ideal world we'd all "turn the other cheek". Rut appears to follow an "eye for an eye" even though this is more of an eye for a baby toe, since getting hit with liquid is not equal to beating someone.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.



Since when does one's age, skin color, hair color, eye color, or from what country one's grandparents came, have to do would good manners and civil behavior.

MTD, Sr.

Are you seriously asking? You cannot be seriously asking that silly question?

Peace