Excessive Timeout Situation

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I can see this being no T because of failure to give proper notice to the coach, with heartfelt apologies to the opponents.

I think you're playing with semantics here. Since the rule says that the official must notify the team, must we tell every member of the team that they are out of timeouts? The asst. coach was notified, therefore the team was notified. It's a coach's responsiblity to know how many timeouts he has left. I can't imagine backing down from the T in this situation.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 6th, 2001 at 09:13 PM]

[Peter Devana]

In Ncaa Men's is it 1 shot plus the ball or just the 1 shot for the extra timeout??

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't have my book at hand, but this begs a few questions. What is the call if no official notice is given? Does the technical foul rule for excessive timeouts supercede the rule that notification be given? Should they get a freebie since the initial rule on the last TO was not followed?

Think about the rule on notification prior to end of halftime. If no notification is given, what is the call when the team does not show up on time? This seems to parallel that situation.

In my personal opinion, I believe that the coach (and/or assistants) are able to keep track of 5 timeouts (please, no Al Gore jokes . . .) Most coaches I know of are constantly checking how many TO's they have left.

If they had no TO's, but the scorer said one, I would waive the T (because of incorrect information). No notification - just doesn't seem right to me.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Kelly Kinghorn
I had a clinician at a camp tell me once that we, as officials, "are not in the time out business." That means that we grant them as requested and that is all. We may check the book for our own knowledge, but we never tell a coach how many they have left. If we get wrong information and then pass that wrong information along, we are the bad guys.

If a coach ever asks me about TO's, I always refer him to the home scorekeeper. If the scorekeeper does his job, the coach will have all the info he needs. If they request a TO they do not have, I just give it to them.

Granted we are not in the TO business but by rule we do have one mandatory obligation. Furthermore, end-game management has been a point of emphasis (especially NCAA Women's) for the last couple of years.

[Dewey1]

Pistol

In NCAA men's the rule is 1 shot and the ball back in play at the point of interuption. So not one and the ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I can see this being no T because of failure to give proper notice to the coach, with heartfelt apologies to the opponents.

There is no penalty listed for failing to notify the coach that the team has no more TOs. THere is a specific penalty listed for taking an excess TO.

The "failure to notify" does not supercede the penalty. Charge the T.

[Hawks Coach]

Notification is in the rules for a reason. To say there is no penalty for failure to notify is ludicrous - how do we penalize improper game management? Can't be done.

I also do not believe that I am playing with semantics - the rule book specifically says head coach and I believe it means head coach. As refs, you frequently state that you won't give the time of day to an assistant, so I think it is a two way street here. You deal with the head coach and hold him responsible.

And none of you have addressed my full original question. In a previous thread, the majority of posters agreed that failure to give notice to a team 3 minutes prior to the end of halftime meant that you should not give the T when the team fails to show up on time, and some suggested they should be given some warm-up time if they came out as soon as notified (http://www.officialforum.com/thread/1398). (In the interest of full disclosure, if you go there, you will notice that I didn't know this rule for halftime - we don't get this in MS ball so I never paid any attention)

Why treat notification regarding TOs differently? A coach can keep track of time and time outs, but notification is still mandatory in both cases. Or from another part of the rules, if you violate the boundary plane twice but were not properly warned the first time, is the second a violation?

[Peter Devana]

Thanx Dewey1, we just reverted to these rules recently after 25 years of FIBA. Also I beleive they only get a mini TO and the time on the shot clock is not reset from the time of interruption. I'm sure all this stuff is in the case book but we still haven't received ours and the seasons almost over!!!

[Dewey1]

Pistol

The shot clock is not reset only if the team that called the excess time-out is going to be given the ball back after the T is shot. But if Team A had the ball and there pass was knocked OB by Team B and during the dead ball period Team B called an excessive time-out then the clock would be reset when Team A gets the ball back after the T was shot. I am not sure about the only getting a mini TO though. It would seem to me that they are already getting a T, and I would give them the full time-out (though I might be wrong about this)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Notification is in the rules for a reason. To say there is no penalty for failure to notify is ludicrous - how do we penalize improper game management? Can't be done.

I also do not believe that I am playing with semantics - the rule book specifically says head coach and I believe it means head coach. As refs, you frequently state that you won't give the time of day to an assistant, so I think it is a two way street here. You deal with the head coach and hold him responsible.

And none of you have addressed my full original question. In a previous thread, the majority of posters agreed that failure to give notice to a team 3 minutes prior to the end of halftime meant that you should not give the T when the team fails to show up on time, and some suggested they should be given some warm-up time if they came out as soon as notified (http://www.officialforum.com/thread/1398). (In the interest of full disclosure, if you go there, you will notice that I didn't know this rule for halftime - we don't get this in MS ball so I never paid any attention)

Why treat notification regarding TOs differently? A coach can keep track of time and time outs, but notification is still mandatory in both cases. Or from another part of the rules, if you violate the boundary plane twice but were not properly warned the first time, is the second a violation?

1) My copy of the rules book just says "notify a team and its coach ..." -- not "head coach". 2-11-6

2) The "notify at half-time" is listes as a requirement of the referee 2-4-4. The "notify of last TO" is a scorers requirement 2-11. Thus, the difference in what we'd do. Now, if the scorer tells the official and the official doesn't notify the team, you might have an argument.

3) A thorw-in boundary violation (not touching the ball or a player) is only a T after a warning. That's clear in 10-1-10.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

[/B][/QUOTE]

1) My copy of the rules book just says "notify a team and its coach ..." -- not "head coach". 2-11-6

2) The "notify at half-time" is listes as a requirement of the referee 2-4-4. The "notify of last TO" is a scorers requirement 2-11. Thus, the difference in what we'd do. Now, if the scorer tells the official and the official doesn't notify the team, you might have an argument.

3) A thorw-in boundary violation (not touching the ball or a player) is only a T after a warning. That's clear in 10-1-10. [/B][/QUOTE]


Bob:

I goofed up when I wrote my post. The NFHS says: "notify a team and its COACH"; the NCAA says: "notify a team and its HEAD COACH".

I guess should be charged with an administrative technical foul for not clarifying my rule book quotes.

I do not want to second guess the Rules Committees but I think that both groups would agree that COACH and HEAD COACH refer to the same person on the bench. The real discussion should be does notifying an assistant coach quailfy with getting the information the the head coach. But that is another discussion.

[Brian Watson]

At the end of a tight game I would think the head coach would rather have you tell an asst. rather than intterupt him or her giving the team final instructions. 60 seconds is not very long, and I think it irks them more when you break their mojo to tell them they are out of TO's.

At least this is what I have observed over time.

[mick]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
At the end of a tight game I would think the head coach would rather have you tell an asst. rather than intterupt him or her giving the team final instructions. 60 seconds is not very long, and I think it irks them more when you break their mojo to tell them they are out of TO's.

At least this is what I have observed over time.

Then, we just wait until they break the huddle.

[Hawks Coach]

Thanks Mick - my point exactly.

[Brian Watson]

To play devils advocate...

If we linger by the bench to advise the head coach we run the risk of 1) delaying the game because we are out of position 2) being near the bench in tense situations. I think we leave our selves open to problems hanging around the bench area. That is why the mechanic is to go to the circle/blocks during time outs.