Ron Artest

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

We are talking about someone throwing beer, a chair and other objects in the direction of players. Then coming onto the court and confronting players.

Some beer hit Artest. The chair happened after Artest was in the stands taking swings. Get your facts straight.

I think you need to read my comments again. I did not say any action was justified. I said I understand. I think we were talking about blame here and how things got out of hand. And if you do not want someone to attack you, you do not throw things at them. If you do not want people to react to you, you do not say certain things to them. If you do not want to get hurt, try everything you can to keep yourself out of a situation in which you play no personal role.

Your quote was, ". I do not blame the players at all. NOT ONE BIT!!" That's moronic. Again, nobody here defended the fans. Everyone thinks the fans are idiots. But you can't justify the players behavior for that. That's part of what is wrong with society....blame it on something else. "Yeah, your honor, I hit him.. but he threw beer on me." It just doesn't wash for anyone with a logical thought in their head. I'm not the slightest bit surprised that Artest is done for the year. If that's all he gets, he'll be lucky. Assault charges are being considered (and not for the guy who tossed a beer).


Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by blindzebra


This is my last reply because you obviously DON'T get it.

I think what you do not get is I do not care what your personal feeling is on this. This is not a debate to change your mind. This is a debate to show you that others are not on the same page with you.

Originally posted by blindzebra
There was no reason to go in the stands NONE, ZIP, NADA. Nothing that was done justifies what happened. No way Artest saw who threw the beer, the tape shows him looking up and toward the court, AND the guy he attacked was still HOLDING a cup.

Now you are a mind reader? I guess you had a personal conversation with Artest and talked to the others around the situation? I forget you are all knowing and the moral police. Remind me not to ever listen to anything you have to say because you seem to think your point of view is the only one important here.

Originally posted by blindzebra
You like to say I'm going to extremes, but you have yet to disprove that there were innocent fans between the court and where the fighting took place.And large out of control men were going over, through, and past them to attack who they THOUGHT threw beer at them.

Comparing murder to a fist fight is a bit much don't you think?

I am going to assume you were not there. I am going to assume you have not talked to anyone there. I am going to assume that you are just speculating here to try to prove a point. If you have to speculate to make your point, your point of view is really wrong. I am not saying what is right and what is wrong. I am stating what the situation is. People should not kill other people or hurt anyone, but they do. I know what I should or should not do to provoke people to react to me or things I say. It does not give anyone the "right" to react to me in a negative way, but they will if I push the right buttons. I know if I talk about someone's wife or children in a certain way, I know they might come at me physically. It does not matter if their actions are right or wrong, but it does matter what they do if I am not careful.

Originally posted by blindzebra
That is no different then idiots shooting at each other past innocent people. The fact that nobody got seriously hurt, does not lessen the risk that two groups of idiots put them under, because they cannot control themselves.

Let me say this. I know the places I can avoid so that does not happen to me. Of course nothing is promised and anything can happen, but I sure know of places I can avoid where people that shoot at people regularly hang out.

Originally posted by blindzebra
Neither side was justified in their actions, and all of them should be punished for what happened. That is NOT PR it's called JUSTICE.

It is still PR. The action of the NBA has nothing to do with the law. As I stated before, I am a Pistons fan and I am not a fan of Artest. I think he acts like a clown most of the time. But I do know better than to throw something at the man that is much bigger and taller than I am or hang around those kinds of people. I also know not to drink so much in public where I cannot control all my emotions or act in a way that people would want to hurt me based on things I do. This is one of the reasons I do not go to bars on a regular basis or places that have built in trouble as a result.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman


Your quote was, ". I do not blame the players at all. NOT ONE BIT!!" That's moronic. Again, nobody here defended the fans. Everyone thinks the fans are idiots. But you can't justify the players behavior for that. That's part of what is wrong with society....blame it on something else. "Yeah, your honor, I hit him.. but he threw beer on me." It just doesn't wash for anyone with a logical thought in their head. I'm not the slightest bit surprised that Artest is done for the year. If that's all he gets, he'll be lucky. Assault charges are being considered (and not for the guy who tossed a beer).

I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too?

This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do. This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal.

You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter. I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it.

Peace

[cford]

Check out this poll from ESPN:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Who is most to blame for Friday night's brawl in Detroit?

46.6% Detroit fans

38.9% Ron Artest

9.2% Ben Wallace

4.7% Detroit security

0.6% Referees

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is blame to be shared then why not give some to the referees.

I don't know which is worse, the fact that some people out there blame the referees for this or that ESPN actually added them as an option to this poll!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

I don't think that year suspension will fly.
at least I hop it doesn't.
Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.
mick

I'll bet you a nickel that Stern cleared the suspensions with the players union before he announced it.

Kinda hard to market your buisiness to the kids if the parents fear their $300 entertainment investment is gonna end up in a brawl.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


I'll bet you a nickel that Stern cleared the suspensions with the players union before he announced it.

Well Stern did discuss this with the leader of the Player's Union before he had his press conference. But the union is going to fight it still. So is the Indiana Pacers organization. So the NBAPA is not in agreement with the Commissioner and his decision. I guess time will tell what might happen.

Peace

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too?


I would expect him to act in a way that is not physical violence. There are many ways to react. Getting wet with beer does not equal getting pounded with fists. He was never in any danger. Once he went into the stands, everyone was in danger.


This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do.


Well we most certainly run in different circles because I don't know anyone who thinks that getting wet gives someone a right to start throwing haymakers.


This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal.


They were never threatened until they went into the stands. If Artest felt threatened by the fans, why would he lay down on the scorer's table all relaxed. Suddenly some beer splashes him and now he feels threatened. Give me a break. It's not like people were coming down and threatening them. Somebody tossed some beer from 12 rows up. And I suppose Steven Jackson was fighting for his life too. Oh yeah, that's right... we're in a society where some people think it's acceptable to start swinging if you get "disrespected."


You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter.

This isn't about morals. It's about the law and common sense. The NBA has a strict guideline that players are never to go into the stands for any reason. Ron Artest is FAR, FAR from being the first player or coach to ever get hit with beer from an idiot fan. He's just the first idiot to start a freakin' riot over it.
This is a discussion board. People give opinions. Take your own advice. Usually the more moronic points of view are the ones that get the most defensive.

I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it.

Getting wet and getting pounded do not equate. Self defense from liquid refreshments has never been tried by any lawyer that I've heard of. Everyone involved deserves punishment. The beer throwers deserve punishment, but certainly not permanent impairment or death from blows. The players who left the floor deserve punishment. The fans who came onto the floor deserve punishment. I know someone personally who died from a punch. A punch is in a totally different realm from tossing beer. You are right in that it is lucky that nobody got killed or hurt seriously. In that case, Artest would not just be in jeopardy of assault, but possibly murder.

Z

[blindzebra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Originally posted by JRutledge
I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too?


I would expect him to act in a way that is not physical violence. There are many ways to react. Getting wet with beer does not equal getting pounded with fists. He was never in any danger. Once he went into the stands, everyone was in danger.


This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do.


Well we most certainly run in different circles because I don't know anyone who thinks that getting wet gives someone a right to start throwing haymakers.


This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal.


They were never threatened until they went into the stands. If Artest felt threatened by the fans, why would he lay down on the scorer's table all relaxed. Suddenly some beer splashes him and now he feels threatened. Give me a break. It's not like people were coming down and threatening them. Somebody tossed some beer from 12 rows up. And I suppose Steven Jackson was fighting for his life too. Oh yeah, that's right... we're in a society where some people think it's acceptable to start swinging if you get "disrespected."


You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter.

This isn't about morals. It's about the law and common sense. The NBA has a strict guideline that players are never to go into the stands for any reason. Ron Artest is FAR, FAR from being the first player or coach to ever get hit with beer from an idiot fan. He's just the first idiot to start a freakin' riot over it.
This is a discussion board. People give opinions. Take your own advice. Usually the more moronic points of view are the ones that get the most defensive.

I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it.

Getting wet and getting pounded do not equate. Self defense from liquid refreshments has never been tried by any lawyer that I've heard of. Everyone involved deserves punishment. The beer throwers deserve punishment, but certainly not permanent impairment or death from blows. The players who left the floor deserve punishment. The fans who came onto the floor deserve punishment. I know someone personally who died from a punch. A punch is in a totally different realm from tossing beer. You are right in that it is lucky that nobody got killed or hurt seriously. In that case, Artest would not just be in jeopardy of assault, but possibly murder.

Z

Of course in 66 replies we are the only 2 that disagree with his stance.

[totalnewbie]

I'm not surprised to see the league adopt a "you cant go into the stands, period" kind of approach. As a league and as a business, you had to know they would do that.

But I would be surprised if they didnt take action in the off season to alter the layout of the floor seats, move the chairs back, or dictate some ajustments to the proximity of the fans to the players.

Plus perhaps secretly "suggest" that the arenas increase security presence in the fourth quarter under 5 minutes in rivalry games.

I was surprised Wallace only got 6. I was thinking 10 to 15. I wasnt surprised to see Artest get a season. I think if he hadn't have had a history he would have gotten 30 like Jackson.

I also thought the league might take a more neutral (maybe balanced is a better work, meaning slam both the Pistons and the Pacers) approach and suspend everyone involved for 10 to 20 plus Artest longer, but the punishment here clearly fell on the Pacers (what was it, Artest for the season, Jackson 30 and ONeal 25 for the Pacers and Wallace 6 and a few others 1 each for the Pistons).

Clark

[totalnewbie]

I didnt see the game prior to the foul and ensuing situation.

What is the general feeling from the officials here about whether any of this is attributed to poor preventative officiating?

Anything a newbie like me can learn from a game like this?

Did you see things prior to the incident that when you watched you thought was done wrong and could lead to problems? Was this a game that from an official's stand point was getting out of control?

Clark

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Getting wet and getting pounded do not equate. Self defense from liquid refreshments has never been tried by any lawyer that I've heard of. Everyone involved deserves punishment. The beer throwers deserve punishment, but certainly not permanent impairment or death from blows. The players who left the floor deserve punishment. The fans who came onto the floor deserve punishment. I know someone personally who died from a punch. A punch is in a totally different realm from tossing beer. You are right in that it is lucky that nobody got killed or hurt seriously. In that case, Artest would not just be in jeopardy of assault, but possibly murder.

Z

So what is your point Z?

I never advocated violence or condoned it. I just said I understood the playerÂ’s actions. I have not any sympathy for the position of the fans that threw things. The original altercation was on the floor, not with the fans. If no one threw anything, Artest does not come into the stands. It is that simple. Now if someone died (which they did not) or got hurt seriously (which they did not) then we can talk about that. All I have said from the beginning is I understood why they acted the way they did. Maybe people throwing something at you would never provoke you to take action, but it would for me or several other people I know. Especially if someone threw something at me or folks I know. And I am not talking about thugs or people that like to fight or constantly get in trouble with the law either. I know if I threw something at someone, I would expect them to react with physical violence against me. That is why I would not throw anything at someone. Maybe you would take someone dumping liquid on you (no matter what that liquid might be), but I would not without doing something about it. If it led to a physical altercation, it just might lead to that. This is all I am saying. I am not asking you to agree or disagree. I am just sharing my personal point of view and I do not care if you or others agree with that point of view. I did not say it to have you agree with my point of view. I said what I said just to make a personal point. Take it or leave it.

Peace

[jritchie]

Getting into this late, but all ARTEST did was get up in the stands and get in some guys face!!!! Before that no punches were thrown until he was covered with yet another cold beverage, which then led to his partner in crime to just throw a hay maker and knock his head off...at that point artest still has not thrown any punches even though he was covered by fans and was getting punched in the back of the head!!! i can see him getting suspended some games for going into the stands that is a NO NO, but costing him the season just because of his prior record was not appropriate..... the others did more than him, until it reached the floor and idiot fans got in his face again on his way out then i think he was protecting himself and punched his way out!!!!! if the fans get on the floor they are fair game, just like when artest got in the stands he was and they just jumped him!!! TOO HARSH OF PENALTY IN MY OPINION

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
I was surprised Wallace only got 6. I was thinking 10 to 15.

The only thing Wallace did was shove Artest and throw a towel at him. He never went into the crowd and never punched anyone. In fact, if head case Artest didn't go into the crowd, Wallace would of probably got a one game suspension. I was shocked that he got 6 games... for what??? Can anyone explain what Wallace did to deserve a 6 game suspension???

[meadallionpalm]

Good monring to you all...

Just a little venting about the situation that happened in Auburn Hills on Firday night. The whole situation was a disgrace to the NBA, the Pacers, and the the Pistons. The NBA is going to ban Atrest for the entire season, and Jackson and O'Neal for 30 & 25 games respectfully, which was done by the commish, to "Send a Message", the Detroit fans should be suspended for a minimum of 5 games. That's right they should have to play the next 5 games with out any fans in the stands. That would also send message to the fans that they too crossed the line of what is acceptable behavior. What the fans did at that game was totally uncalled for. The fans landed a lot more punches and some of them got what they deserved (the 2 guys that got decked when they were on the floor.)

Just the opinions of a non Pacer fan from Indiana.

[Jurassic Referee]

I was waiting for this:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/.../d01-11818.htm

It was the official's fault!

Lah me! Why aren't I surprised?