throw in violation??

[shont]

Was watching college BB game on TV last night. After a made basket the scored upon team's player picked up the ball, steped OOB with both feet, lost his balance, fell forward and put the ball (while holding it in both hands) on the floor in bounds to catch himself, stood up still with feet OOB then made the throw in. No violation was called. Would it be a violation in NF rules for carrying the ball onto the court??

Shont

[Redhouse]

That would be a violation in Fed. 9.2.6 rule book. Not real sure about NCAA though.

[scat03]

thats a violation at any level.

[TriggerMN]

This was in the Syracuse-Mississippi State game. I'm willing to bet that the official would have been chewed out if he HAD made a violation call on this one.

D-1 game, preventive officiating. Syracuse wasn't pressing. I had a big time assignor tell me this summer, "It's not what you call, it's what you don't call." Sound advice at that level.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
This was in the Syracuse-Mississippi State game. I'm willing to bet that the official would have been chewed out if he HAD made a violation call on this one.

D-1 game, preventive officiating. Syracuse wasn't pressing. I had a big time assignor tell me this summer, "It's not what you call, it's what you don't call." Sound advice at that level.

Yeah, I don't officiate college ball but have several friends that I officiate HS ball with who do college also. Some of them have been told by their college assignors to pretty much ignore violations in the backcourt that occur without pressure by the defense (traveling, double dribble, carry etc.). Sometime I'd like to see an offensive player in backcourt with no pressure just quit dribbling and walk up the floor carrying the ball.

Z

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by zebraman
... Some of them have been told by their college assignors to pretty much ignore violations in the backcourt that occur without pressure by the defense (traveling, double dribble, carry etc.). Sometime I'd like to see an offensive player in backcourt with no pressure just quit dribbling and walk up the floor carrying the ball.

That is why the college official gets toasted when the obvious is ignored. Sounds like a losing proposition but if his boss tells him to view it that way then so be it. Personally, I have refused to work some conferences simply because the assignor's philosophy about similar things was totally contrary to the rules of the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by shont
Was watching college BB game on TV last night. After a made basket the scored upon team's player picked up the ball, steped OOB with both feet, lost his balance, fell forward and put the ball (while holding it in both hands) on the floor in bounds to catch himself, stood up still with feet OOB then made the throw in. No violation was called. Would it be a violation in NF rules for carrying the ball onto the court??

I'm sure that there are many who will disagree with my opinion, but I do NOT believe that this action constitutes is a throw-in violation.

First, the casebook play cited earlier by Redhouse should be 9.2.5, which deals with a thrower STEPPING through the boundary plane and touching the court inbounds. That is a violation. However, in this play the thrower never touched the court inbounds, only the ball did, and he did not release it on a throw-in pass.

Second, let's look at the actual rule.
9-2 Throw-in Provisions
A player shall not violate the following provisions governing the throw-in.
The thrower shall not:
ART. 1...Leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
....
ART. 5...Carry the ball onto the court.

What we have to decide is whether either of these two provisions has been broken.
1. Since this throw-in is after a goal it is not a designated spot throw-in. Therefore, article 1 does not apply.
2. Article 5 is the only possible rule that could allow the official to call a violation in this case. It is my opinion that only the player physically touching the inbounds portion of the court is carrying the ball onto the court. For me simply bending over and touching the ball to the inbounds portion of the court is not carrying it onto the court. It is not crystal clear in the books and is a gray area in my humble opinion.
There are analogous situations in the rules. (Examples include: holding the ball and touching it to the floor is NOT a dribble (4-15-4 NOTE#3), a player is allowed to bounce the ball over the FT line during a FT attempt before trying for goal, and 9-1-9 specifying a FOOT may not break the plane, see the next paragraph.)

Again others will have to make their own decisions, but in a related situation, I believe that reaching over and touching the court inside the free throw lane with a hand does not constitute leaving a marked lane space during a free throw 9-1-6, nor is it against 9-1-9 since that rule specifically says the foot cannot break the plane.

I think that those who already answered and did so with certainty and conviction may have done so too quickly and should consider this argument.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 04:08 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I'm sure that there are many who will disagree with my opinion, but I do NOT believe that this action constitutes is a throw-in violation.

First, the casebook play cited earlier by Redhouse should be 9.2.5, which deals with a thrower STEPPING through the boundary plane and touching the court inbounds. That is a violation. However, in this play the thrower never touched the court inbounds, only the ball did, and he did not release it on a throw-in pass.

Second, let's look at the actual rule.
9-2 Throw-in Provisions
A player shall not violate the following provisions governing the throw-in.
The thrower shall not:
ART. 1...Leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
....
ART. 5...Carry the ball onto the court.

What we have to decide is whether either of these two provisions has been broken.
1. Since this throw-in is after a goal it is not a designated spot throw-in. Therefore, article 1 does not apply.
2. Article 5 is the only possible rule that could allow the official to call a violation in this case. It is my opinion that only the player physically touching the inbounds portion of the court is carrying the ball onto the court. For me simply bending over and touching the ball to the inbounds portion of the court is not carrying it onto the court. It is not crystal clear in the books and is a gray area in my humble opinion.
There are analogous situations in the rules. (Examples include: holding the ball and touching it to the floor is NOT a dribble (4-15-4 NOTE#3), a player is allowed to bounce the ball over the FT line during a FT attempt before trying for goal, and 9-1-9 specifying a FOOT may not break the plane, see the next paragraph.)

Again others will have to make their own decisions, but in a related situation, I believe that reaching over and touching the court inside the free throw lane with a hand does not constitute leaving a marked lane space during a free throw 9-1-6, nor is it against 9-1-9 since that rule specifically says the foot cannot break the plane.

I think that those who already answered and did so with certainty and conviction may have done so too quickly and should consider this argument.

You are kidding ,aren't you?

Article 5 is the only rule that an official could use to call a violation in this case? Um, how about 9-2-6- "The thrower shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player". Isn't the ball "in the court" when it touches the floor in-bounds? Seems like R4-4-1 says it is- A ball which is in contact...with the court is in the backcourt if...the ball...is touching thre backcourt". Isn't the thrower "touching" the ball at that instant? Isn't the thrower the first to touch the ball after it touched in-bounds? Maybe you can find 2000 words to tell us why that rule can't possibly apply either.

Yer a hoot, Nevada! LOL.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You are kidding ,aren't you?

Article 5 is the only rule that an official could use to call a violation in this case? Um, how about 9-2-6- "The thrower shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player". Isn't the ball "in the court" when it touches the floor in-bounds? Seems like R4-4-1 says it is- A ball which is in contact...with the court is in the backcourt if...the ball...is touching thre backcourt". Isn't the thrower "touching" the ball at that instant? Isn't the thrower the first to touch the ball after it touched in-bounds? Maybe you can find 2000 words to tell us why that rule can't possibly apply either.

Yer a hoot, Nevada! LOL.

JR,
I did glance at 9-2-6, but discounted it because it quite clearly is intended to only apply AFTER the ball is released on a throw-in pass. In this case, the ball has not been thrown.

I don't believe that 4-4-1 is applicable either, but you may have a strong case here.
I hold my opinion because the player is still touching OOB, so the ball is still OOB since it hasn't been released by the thrower.
Perhaps you could help me out by telling me if this is a backcourt violation:
A player standing in the backcourt and bends over the division line and touches the ball to the court in the frontcourt. The ball remains in the player's hands who keeps his feet in the backcourt the whole time. The player then stands back up.

Furthermore, if the thrower can hold the ball over the boundary plane in the air without violating, I don't see why it should be a violation to lower it to the floor. There is certainly no advantage in that. I just keep my 5 second count going.

Perhaps I am being too legalistic in my reading of the rules, but those are my opinions.

PS I think that is fewer than 2000 words.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 07:30 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

JR,
I did glance at 9-2-6, but discounted it because it quite clearly is intended to only apply AFTER the ball is released on a throw-in pass. In this case, the ball has not been thrown.

I don't believe that 4-4-1 is applicable either. I hold this opinion because the player is still touching OOB, so the ball is still OOB since it hasn't been released by the thrower. This is the same as a player standing in the backcourt and bending over the division line and touching the ball to the court in the frontcourt. The ball does not attain frontcourt status in this case, since it remains in the player's hands who is in the backcourt the whole time.
Furthermore, if the thrower can hold the ball over the boundary plane in the air without violating, I don't see why it should be a violation to lower it to the floor. There is certainly no advantage in that. I just keep my 5 second count going.

Perhaps I am being too legalistic in my reading of the rules, but those are my opinions.

PS I think that is fewer than 2000 words.

Too legalistic? Naw, "goofy" is the best word.

Hell, if you look at R9-1-5 that you say isn't applicable, you're the only official that I know of that would make that statement. Whoa, maybe MTD Sr. in one of his RULES modes maybe might do that too. Look at the play! Was the ball on the court? Uh, yeah, it was fully touching the floor in-bounds. How did it get there? Little faerie princesses transmogrified it there? Um, no, don't think so. Actually, the thrower put it there. Now how did the thrower put it there? Faith, trust and pixie dust? Hmmmm, don't really think that that was a factor either. Ya think maybe, just maybe, the thrower carried the ball there? Carried it there and then touched the ball down ON the court? Naw, that would be a logical conclusion. LOL!

Please, please please let me know when you decide to make that call, and then try to hand that explanation to the coach. I wanna be there. It would be worth the airfare.

Lah me, yer a hoot!