Situation from yesterday

[SamIAm]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand.

Dan-ref,
Preface:
I don't have an NCAA book here, but I will type now and verify later.
End of Preface

NCAA doesn't allow for officials to determine posession via the monitor. Only whether a shot was released before the horn sounded at the end of a half or game.

Stick to your quote, you said the game was taken away.

The game is not interupted each time the opposing teams or coaches both think the ball should be theirs or that a foul was missed. Officials miss calls sometimes. Coaches and players have to live with it.
With training and experience officials make less mistakes but still do mistakes. The problem is you don't when those mistakes occur. You don't stop the game each time a whistle blows and check for accuracy.

[Junker]

I thought I'd better jump in and clarify. When the play happened, the only person I knew was upset was the coach. That is exactly why I didn't stop the game to talk to him. I was watching my area and had no idea the ball had hit the girl who was oob. My partner had been solid all day and he was set up to administer the inbound so I didn't think there was any problem . It was only afterward, on the way to the scorers table that I talked to my partner and found out what the coach was upset about. Between the end of the period and the overtime, I explained to the coach that I couldn't just stop the game to go over and see what he was yelling about (he was yelling). Under the circumstances, I think we handled it the only way we could. If we did meet with the coach and reverse our call, all H-E_DOUBLHOCKEYSTICKS is going to break our with the other coach and the other team's fans.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by SamIAm

Dan-ref,
Preface:
I don't have an NCAA book here, but I will type now and verify later.
End of Preface

NCAA doesn't allow for officials to determine posession via the monitor. Only whether a shot was released before the horn sounded at the end of a half or game.

There's a lot more than this one case that can be checked at a monitor but this is irrelevant. What is relevant is the ncaa acknowldges that we cannot be perfect and has a mechanism to help. Which is counter to your argument that we get 1 shot and need to live with our mistakes forever.

Anyway, I think I made my point, we don't have to agree.

[SamIAm]

Fair enough. And the same for my point.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by Junker
Under the circumstances, I think we handled it the only way we could. If we did meet with the coach and reverse our call, all H-E_DOUBLHOCKEYSTICKS is going to break our with the other coach and the other team's fans.

Wht will all %$^^& break loose with the other team's coach and fans any more than Coach B an their fans should have over an obiously a bad call.

If I had been a coach and there was an obvious bad call. (I want to reiterate this in my opinion was not a judgement call but a rules interpretation question) and I asked or questioned how he could give ball back and I was ignoredas mentioned in an earlier post you'd have had to throw a T.

Getting it right can never be wrong.

I am not saying that we have to listen to a coach everytime, but in this case you just had a call, Coach is questioning it, it is a tie with time running out. Why not blow your whistle and run in and ask your partner what happened? Ask for a simple explanantion so you know what happened so you can explain it. My heck the game is on the line. I would probably would not do this with 6:55 left in the first but I certainly would in a tie game at the end.

It sounds like it was a press situation. where were you? You should have had a clue about what was going on. This is game management and court awareness. I may not have seen the exact details but i would think you had a ide of what happened. My two cents.

[coachz_216]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Who eventually won is irrelevant. Coach B's team had a possession stolen from them. That's all that matters.

Where does it say Coach B was yelling?

If getting it right the first time is the only way to do this why does the ncaa make their best trained & experienced officials use a monitor to fix calls?

I'm not advocating getting the call wrong--but this doesn't sound to me like a situation where junker should have stopped the game just because coach B wasn't happy.

Obviously getting the call right the first time is the ideal situation, but officials errors are a part of the game. Players & coaches aren't perfect...neither are the stripes.

In the NCAA there are many other pressures that demand that replay be used to "get it right", primarily all the TV cameras that are going to replay over and over any officiating error &/or the great god $$$$$ which rules the NCAA.

[Junker]

This was not a press situation (sorry I didn't include that detail), we were on A's baseline. Even in a press situation, why would I be looking at the inbounder with my partner right there? The only information I had was Coach B yelling that he wanted to talk to me. It was my opinion that if we had talked to the coach and then changed our call, the other team could take that as the coach complaining and "working" us to get a call. Then in overtime we would have one coach and group of fans that knew we blew a call and the other coach and group of fans that think they can complain and get us to change our mind.

[coachz_216]

Originally posted by Junker
This was not a press situation (sorry I didn't include that detail), we were on A's baseline. Even in a press situation, why would I be looking at the inbounder with my partner right there? The only information I had was Coach B yelling that he wanted to talk to me. It was my opinion that if we had talked to the coach and then changed our call, the other team could take that as the coach complaining and "working" us to get a call. Then in overtime we would have one coach and group of fans that knew we blew a call and the other coach and group of fans that think they can complain and get us to change our mind.

I understand the situation--it seems that your real question is, "should you have stopped the game to find out what coach B was yelling about?"

IMO, from what you have told me, you did fine. However, if you're worried about people being upset with you--would you rather have a group of people mad at you because they thought you "caved" to a coach by changing the call the a call you KNOW is right or would you rather have a group of people mad at you for sticking by a call that you KNOW was wrong? Seems to me like it's best to get it right, but in the heat of battle, we can't always get things perfect!

[Junker]

Thanks for the thoughts. You are correct in that I was second guessing talking to the coach, but with the information I had at the time, I'm pretty comfortable with our actions. The fact that someone would be mad at me didn't enter into it, I really didn't have any idea what he would want me to come across the floor to talk about, but I did know I wasn't going to go as my partner was actually in the motion of handing the ball to the inbounder. Besides, I'm a referee and teacher. Someone's always mad at me about something. Thanks again.

[imaref]

I certainly can understand your dilemma, Junker....and you say that your partner was in the process of "handing the ball" to A for throw-in. You don't say whether the ball was "actually" in the hands of A....but if not, and Coach B is challenging your partner's call.....prior to A having the ball.....hit your whistle....respond to Coach B's concern....if it merits "rectifying a possible error", fix it....if not, charge Coach B a time out.

Once A has possession of the ball, I cannot recognize Coach B's request.

[Edited by imaref on Nov 10th, 2004 at 11:02 PM]

[Junker]

Thanks for thickening the plot. Coach B was out of timeouts of course. Otherwise that would have been a course of action. My partner had not actually handed the ball to the inbounder, but he was in the motion of handing it off when I saw the coach trying to get my attention.

[imaref]

In light of the fact that your partner had not yet given A the ball, hit the whistle to stop play....check out what Coach B has to say and make the correction. No time out charged and you and your partner "get it right!"

Of course, if Coach B is wrong and it costs him a time out with none left....piece of cake. Technical foul....A shoots free throws....ball out of bounds division line throw in by A and A will probably stall time out to end of game getting the win. You and your partner are "blackballed" by Coach B...never, ever to work 6th grade girls basketball games anymore!

Time to move on!

wl

[Redhouse]

Correctable error me if I am wrong, but I didn't think this would be a correctable error situation in which you would charge the team a timeout. If the ball was inbounded it would just be considered an error on the part of the official. Correct me if I am wrong, which I have been many times before.

[Adam]

This does not fall into the correctable error category. First, it's not an error until the ref gives the ball to the thrower. Second, once it becomes an error, it's no longer correctable. Play on.

I know I'm not going to run over to my partner every time there's an OOB play I didn't see clearly to ensure he's enforcing the rules correctly.
If B coach is chirping, I'm going to assume he saw something different than my partner (given his worse angle, I'm not trusting his vision on this play), and I'm going to trust my partner to apply the rule correctly. If he's handing the ball to A1 as Bcoach is chirping, I'm not going to stop play because I have no indication that my partner was wrong.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
This does not fall into the correctable error category. First, it's not an error until the ref gives the ball to the thrower. Second, once it becomes an error, it's no longer correctable. Play on.

It never was, officially, a "Correctable Error" as defined by the book. It is, however, a fixable mistake until the ball is inbounded.

But what imaref was saying was to describe a general procedure, for any situation where the non-administering official thinks his partner may have goofed. He wasn't saying it was correctable, which it isn't. Just that he'd approach any such situation in a certain way.