Intentional Player-Control

[Richard Ogg]

Watching a game the other night I saw the guard, while dribbling the ball, unload with an elbow into the throat of an opponent. It was clearly intentional, maybe too rough, but I can't say if the intent was to create space, intimidate, or what. (The point guard is really a linebacker in the wrong sport, but such is small school athletics.) The official simply called a PC, and the player chuckled. (He did not react in a way to create attention at all.)

My question is what are your options on this? Anyone ever call an intentional Player-control foul and shoot 2? My understanding of the rules doesn't really give the official much of an option. (PC and away we go.) In those situations I'd like to sit the player down. Even the T doesn't fit the rules well....

[MattRef]

I think the case is open and shut. If you felt the contact was intentional, then call it as such. If the player's intent was to cause harm, then it should be a flagrant foul, and the player is disqualified. You must make the decision if the hit was designed to simply take the defensive player out of his/her advantageous position or was it in retailation for something, or just to be mean. I honestly don't think something as mild as a PC foul should have been called here if what you described is true. Hope that helps.
Matt

[co2ice]

The good book says excessive swinging of elbows even if no contact is made results in a T. If contact is made and it appears flagrant then a T and ejection are the penalty. I dont believe there is anything that prohibits us from calling a flagrant foul on the dribbler. But I've never seen an incident as you've explained.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
Watching a game the other night I saw the guard, while dribbling the ball, unload with an elbow into the throat of an opponent. It was clearly intentional, maybe too rough, but I can't say if the intent was to create space, intimidate, or what. (The point guard is really a linebacker in the wrong sport, but such is small school athletics.) The official simply called a PC, and the player chuckled. (He did not react in a way to create attention at all.)

My question is what are your options on this? Anyone ever call an intentional Player-control foul and shoot 2? My understanding of the rules doesn't really give the official much of an option. (PC and away we go.) In those situations I'd like to sit the player down. Even the T doesn't fit the rules well....

There's no such animal as an intentional player control foul. This is simply an intentional foul. The official must decide if it's flagrant as well.

4.19.6D. Play: Is it possible for airborne shooter A1 to commit a foul which would not be player control? Ruling: Yes. The airborne shooter could be charged with an intentional or flagrant personal foul or with a technical foul. (4-19-2, 3, 4)

[chels]

I wouldn't have called a PC. It would have been a personal
with a possible 1-1 if they were in the bonus. It doesn't
sound like the dribbler was out of control. On the contrary.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by chels
I wouldn't have called a PC. It would have been a personal
with a possible 1-1 if they were in the bonus. It doesn't
sound like the dribbler was out of control. On the contrary.

If the foul was on the dribbler, then it can't result in a 1-1 (sic). It's either a PC (no throws) or an intentional ro flagrant (two throws).

[Mark Padgett]

What if the player who threw an elbow was a different offensive player, say one who was setting a screen? You judge the contact to be more than "normal for a personal foul" but short of being flagrant. Do you think you could call an intentional personal foul in this situation?

I guess my question is based on the information I got at two different camps the year the NF added the "going for the ball but causing excessive contact" part to the intentional foul rule. We were told that now we could use the intentional foul call like the NBA used their "flagrant level 1" call - more contact than a normal foul, but not enough to eject a player. But the discussions always centered around making this call against a defensive player, never an offensive one.

What do you think? Can you "legally" use the intentional call against an offensive (not a player in player control) player if you think the contact was between a normal personal foul but fell short of being flagrant?

Please cite rule to support, and don't use the "swinging elbows is a technical" exception. The contact wouldn't have to be an elbow, maybe a hard moving screen. Thanks.

[Brian Watson]

I don't know what rule to reference it to, but I called an intentional on the offense this year. Who has their book, do they even reference offensive vs defensive player in the intentioanl language? If the foul is over the line hard, I think you have justification to call it.

You probably had to see the play, but it was the usual mix of rough play, frustration, and testosterone.

A went to set a screen, B saw it and went to run around it. A seeing B avoid him, took a step left, dropped his shoulder, and crushed him with an elbow/forearm combo to the ribs and a hip check for dessert as he went by.

I didn't think it was flagrant, just very hard. I gave him an intentional, and no one said boo.

A1 on offense goes through the lane within the confines of the offensive scheme. B1 is on his hip the whole way, a couple of bumps here and there no advantage. When A1 returns to the wing, B1 is still there on his hip. A1 now gives B1 an elbow to the head to gain some space. I blow the whistle, give the intentional foul signal, call my partner over and ask him to escort A1 to the bench. At the table I have intentional flagrant foul, two shot, the ball and A1 is ejected. In Ct an ejected player must sit for the next game. The Coach of Team A, of course, went nuts, when I explained the scenario to him he rolled his eyes went to the bench and made his player leave the gym.

I agree with you all, If you feel its flagrant, send him home. If not, PC and move on.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Suppref
A1 on offense goes through the lane within the confines of the offensive scheme. B1 is on his hip the whole way, a couple of bumps here and there no advantage. When A1 returns to the wing, B1 is still there on his hip. A1 now gives B1 an elbow to the head to gain some space. I blow the whistle, give the intentional foul signal, call my partner over and ask him to escort A1 to the bench. At the table I have intentional flagrant foul, two shot, the ball and A1 is ejected. In Ct an ejected player must sit for the next game. The Coach of Team A, of course, went nuts, when I explained the scenario to him he rolled his eyes went to the bench and made his player leave the gym.

I agree with you all, If you feel its flagrant, send him home. If not, PC and move on.

Actually, this in not an intentional foul if you called it flagrant. It is a flagrant personal foul and you should not use the intentional signal. Yes, a flagrant personal foul can be "intentional", but the word "intentional" in that context just describes the intent of the action, not a label for a particular type of foul. There is no approved mechanic to signal a flagrant foul in NF, so you just give the proper foul signal, then inform the scorer and the bench that the foul was flagrant and the player is ejected.

Of course, most of us also make some kind of signal indicating ejection, usually like a baseball umpire throwing a manager out of the game.

[Peter Devana]

Intentional-Flagrant-Ejection-2plus the ball

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Originally posted by Suppref


Actually, this in not an intentional foul if you called it flagrant. It is a flagrant personal foul and you should not use the intentional signal. Yes, a flagrant personal foul can be "intentional", but the word "intentional" in that context just describes the intent of the action, not a label for a particular type of foul. There is no approved mechanic to signal a flagrant foul in NF, so you just give the proper foul signal, then inform the scorer and the bench that the foul was flagrant and the player is ejected.

Of course, most of us also make some kind of signal indicating ejection, usually like a baseball umpire throwing a manager out of the game.

Mark, Thanks for the mechanic update. My first reaction to the situation was that he intentional trough the elbow to the head. If this should happen again I'll know not to give the intentional foul signal. Thanks to all who post and reply to this forum. I thought I was a pretty good official who would always work hard t improve every season. With the help of this forum and it's members, I get better every game!!

[BktBallRef]

Suppref,

Why did the coach make the player leave the gym? Where did he go? What did he di until the game was over?


Mark,

Why wouldn't you call this an intentional flagrant foul?

TH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
[B]Suppref,

Why did the coach make the player leave the gym? Where did he go? What did he di until the game was over?


BBRef, This coach still believes that its one thing to play hard and another to play dirty. He just didn't want to see him anymore that night, he was of no use to him on the bench and sent him to the locker room.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Mark,

Why wouldn't you call this an intentional flagrant foul?

TH

Looking in Rule 4, I see Intentional Foul, and I see Flagrant Foul, but I don't see Intentional Flagrant foul.