Unsportswomanlike Play?

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I feel as though I am in the minority here, but I find this to be entirely different from legitimate deception based on basketball skill. Running good screens, having the ability to turn quickly, ball fake, crossover, these are all basketball skills and are an inherent part of the game. The play referenced here has nothing to do with basketball, just taking advantage of the gullibility of young kids trying to master a complex game. I would never run this type of deception and find it entirely unsporting. Especially against 4-6th graders.

Teach them to play the game, not to use these kind of tricks as a substitute for skill. As to whether to call it, I suppose this is not covered by the unsportsmanship rule. However I think folks ought to seriously reflect on why we have kids playing sports and what lessons we are trying to teach them before running plays like this in youth basketball.

Gee, Coach. T'ain't a biggie. It should only work once against any team.
If you teach it, it won't work against your team. We ran it once in 1964. That was probably before the automobile.
mick

[Hawks Coach]

I guess that my point is that you can come up with a bunch of different tricks (the barking dog, the "I need to tie my shoe", the "I am supposed to take this throw in", etc) that have no relation to basketball skill or teamwork but that will fool kids a bunch of times. I fool my own kids (who know me well) with the diversion to turn their head so I can steal their desert. Probably got each of them 10 times before they caught on, and I can still come close.

Its hard enough to teach how to defend real basketball without having to teach them to defend silly tricks that have nothing to do with basketball. I don't know what of value we have taught either team when we resort to this type of trickery. Maybe I am just bullheaded (no way!), but this just doesn't seem to be sporting and does not contribute in any positive way to youth sports.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I guess that my point is that you can come up with a bunch of different tricks (the barking dog, the "I need to tie my shoe", the "I am supposed to take this throw in", etc) that have no relation to basketball skill or teamwork but that will fool kids a bunch of times. I fool my own kids (who know me well) with the diversion to turn their head so I can steal their desert. Probably got each of them 10 times before they caught on, and I can still come close.

Its hard enough to teach how to defend real basketball without having to teach them to defend silly tricks that have nothing to do with basketball. I don't know what of value we have taught either team when we resort to this type of trickery. Maybe I am just bullheaded (no way!), but this just doesn't seem to be sporting and does not contribute in any positive way to youth sports.

That's borderline abuse isn't it?
Well, that play..., it's sorta like football's triple-reverse. I never works; it's just fun.
mick

[Peter Devana]

Hawks Coach,
Right on!! We need more like you!!!

[BktBallRef]

Coach,

I guess that my point would be that there are a lot of things in amtauer athletics that really have no place in the game. However, the rules don't always allow or call for it to be penalized. We have to depend upon the ethics of coaches like yourself to keep the games as pure as possible.

TH

[Hawks Coach]

Again, my thoughts on what should be called at what level differ. Just as you may go a little looser on the travels and double dribbles, I think you can (and should) be tighter on what you call unsportsmanlike in the younger age groups. We need to start training coaches, parents, and players that we are not teaching how to win, we are teaching how to play winning basketball. There is a big difference.

If the play cited in the original post happened in 4-6th grade, I would suggest warning the coach, disallowing the basket, and giving the ball to the opponents. I will grant that this is not supported in the rules. Tell him if he doesn't like it, he can have the unsportsmanlike T before the basket with no warning.

Last year 5th rec girls, the ref allowed us to retake a free throw because of some innappropriate distracting screams just as our player was releasing the ball (by an irate mother in the stands). It was obvious that her screams made our player flinch and miss badly. He called "fan interference"(this is baseball?) and sold it well. Of course neither the parent nor the coach knew the rules well enough to complain. In HS, thats just ball baby. In junior rec ball, its a silly parent who needs some perspective.

On Saturday, 6th grade travel league, one of our opponents found a need to cough just as our player was releasing a free throw. Trail noted this and, after about 5 times of witnessing this, went up to the girl and asked her if she was alright prior to the second free throw being administered. He said "I noticed that you have a cough that seems to hit you just when they are shooting their free throws. I wanted to be sure you were ok before we shoot this next one." She got the picture and we never had another cough. I doubt you would bother with this at the HS varsity level, but it did the job at the 6th grade level. The same ref also told the coach to get one of his fans under control earlier in the game (they found the need to help with the calls in a very loud fashion). The coach turned to say something, but the fans around her said "we told her" (!!!). They all knew it was innappropriate, but it took the ref stepping up to make it stop (and it did stop).

I wish this would happen more often.

[bainemc]

Get this.. I had the exact fake play ran during a JV Church game. Being the unqualified 1st year ref that I am, I completly screwed it up.
A1 inbounding under basket, A2 running towards him yelling let me take it out "I'm supposed to take it out". As A1 hands A2 the ball(A2 being inbounds), he takes one dribble and in the bucket. As A2 begins to shoot, stupid 1st year ref (Me) blows whistle.

Of course as soon as I did, I realized I got tricked just as bad as team B.Coach B went nuts. Coach B said since I blew my whistle that the ball became dead. He may have been right, but I considered it an inadvertant whistle,We counted the basket, no defender anywhere near to keep A2 from making the basket.

I was upset at myself for blowing the deal, but then I realized.. That Coach A had set up the whole thing by yelling at the boys to change places " Let Johnny throw it in" After the fact I realize that he is doing this way out of the Coaches box, even past the end of his bench; of course with an overpowering voice that everybody would hear.

Coach A calls time out, I go over and tell him that next time he is out of his box, especially to initiate a trick play, he will get nailed..T time.

As last post, I agree that there is not room for plays like this in a Good Sportsmanship game. These happen to be older kids.. Maybe ok. But there is a negative connotation about the word(s) Deceive and Deception. What do you want y our kids to learn.. Good skills or deception.. Or do you consider deception a skill?

1st Year Ref, Learning

[ScottParks]

It seems you described a violation anyhow.

A1 inbounding under basket, A2 running towards him yelling let me take it out "I'm supposed to take it out". As A1 hands A2 the ball(A2 being inbounds), he takes one dribble and in the bucket. As A2 begins to shoot, stupid 1st year ref (Me)blows whistle...

If A1 handed the ball to A2 inbounds, this is a violation of the throw-in. Ball must be passed inbounds!

[Bart Tyson]

I thought if the ball breaks the plan then it can be grab by the def. or off. even while the thrower-in is still holding the ball.

[mick]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
I thought if the ball breaks the plan then it can be grab by the def. or off. even while the thrower-in is still holding the ball.

I think "released on a throw-in" ,or some such is the near phraseology.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
I thought if the ball breaks the plan then it can be grab by the def. or off. even while the thrower-in is still holding the ball.

Defender - yes. Offensive player - no. The ball must be released toward the court, and the offensive player cannot touch it before it crosses the boundary line.

BTW - please don't use the NF term "thrower-in". Every time I hear it I want to "thrower-up."

[Hawks Coach]

If it must be released on a pass, then isn't it a violation on the offense if a defender grabs the ball (with the ball having broken the plane), since the inbounder (is that ok Mark?) never released the ball? This is admittedly an extremely technical reading of the rule, but if the offense holds the ball over the plane, it seems that no matter who grabs it, there is a violation of 7-6-1 due to no release.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If it must be released on a pass, then isn't it a violation on the offense if a defender grabs the ball (with the ball having broken the plane), since the inbounder (is that ok Mark?) never released the ball? This is admittedly an extremely technical reading of the rule, but if the offense holds the ball over the plane, it seems that no matter who grabs it, there is a violation of 7-6-1 due to no release.

9-2-11 Note covers this situation as well as the case book play below.

7.6.3A. Play: While attempting a throw-in, A1 holds the ball through the plane of the end line. B1: (a) slaps the ball from A1's hand(s); or (b) simply grabs the ball and then throws it through B's basket. Ruling: In (a), no violation has occurred and play continues. In (b), score two points for Team B.

[Hawks Coach]

BBALL - I kinda knew there was something, but I flat missed it! Thanks.