Where is it in the book?

[Todd VandenAkker]

Hypotheticals:

1) A1 leaps from inbounds, gains control of the ball while in the air (from a pass), then tosses the ball into the court before momentum carries him OOB. He quickly returns to the court, and is the first to touch the ball again.

2) Same situation, but A1 controls the ball with both hands while still running (and contacting the floor), then tosses it softly so it stays on the court while his momentum carries him OOB. He again is the first to touch the ball again inbounds.

I'm confident that situation #1 is legal (it's specifically mentioned on the NFHS web site), but am unclear about #2 since I can't find a citation. Seems to me I read somewhere that a player who had last control of the ball while inbounds, then runs OOB, cannot be the first person to touch the ball when he returns onto the court. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me find it in the Rules or Case books. I need "confirmation" one way or another for my association meeting on Monday night (1/22), so if anyone remembers seeing the interpretation of these (and similar) scenarios, I'd appreciate getting the specifics. Thanks guys (and gals)!

[BktBallRef]

The rules and case plays that you are looking for are under 7-1 and 7.1. Since there wasn't player control when the player went OOB, it is perfectly legal for him to be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds.

[mick]

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
Hypotheticals:

1) A1 leaps from inbounds, gains control of the ball while in the air (from a pass), then tosses the ball into the court before momentum carries him OOB. He quickly returns to the court, and is the first to touch the ball again.

2) Same situation, but A1 controls the ball with both hands while still running (and contacting the floor), then tosses it softly so it stays on the court while his momentum carries him OOB. He again is the first to touch the ball again inbounds.

I'm confident that situation #1 is legal (it's specifically mentioned on the NFHS web site), but am unclear about #2 since I can't find a citation. Seems to me I read somewhere that a player who had last control of the ball while inbounds, then runs OOB, cannot be the first person to touch the ball when he returns onto the court. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me find it in the Rules or Case books. I need "confirmation" one way or another for my association meeting on Monday night (1/22), so if anyone remembers seeing the interpretation of these (and similar) scenarios, I'd appreciate getting the specifics. Thanks guys (and gals)!

Sorry, Todd,
But a player leaving the court voluntarily without an intent to deceive is not in the Rule Book.
The only confirmations I have that say it is okay is because Bob Jenkins and Tony say it is so.
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick
Sorry, Todd,
But a player leaving the court voluntarily without an intent to deceive is not in the Rule Book.
The only confirmations I have that say it is okay is because Bob Jenkins and Tony say it is so.
mick

Bob said it, I believe it, I guess that settles it!!

[Todd VandenAkker]

Originally posted by mick
The only confirmations I have that say it is okay is because Bob Jenkins and Tony say it is so.

Was there a previous post on this situation that I missed, 'cuz I don't see that Bob or Tony made a reply to my question yet? And these hypotheticals entail NOT voluntarily leaving the court (i.e., momentum carries the player off).

[mick]

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker

Was there a previous post on this situation that I missed, 'cuz I don't see that Bob or Tony made a reply to my question yet? And these hypotheticals entail NOT voluntarily leaving the court (i.e., momentum carries the player off).

This Page Out of Bounds (OOB) by Richard Ogg

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
Hypotheticals:

1) A1 leaps from inbounds, gains control of the ball while in the air (from a pass), then tosses the ball into the court before momentum carries him OOB. He quickly returns to the court, and is the first to touch the ball again.

2) Same situation, but A1 controls the ball with both hands while still running (and contacting the floor), then tosses it softly so it stays on the court while his momentum carries him OOB. He again is the first to touch the ball again inbounds.

I'm confident that situation #1 is legal (it's specifically mentioned on the NFHS web site), but am unclear about #2 since I can't find a citation. Seems to me I read somewhere that a player who had last control of the ball while inbounds, then runs OOB, cannot be the first person to touch the ball when he returns onto the court. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me find it in the Rules or Case books. I need "confirmation" one way or another for my association meeting on Monday night (1/22), so if anyone remembers seeing the interpretation of these (and similar) scenarios, I'd appreciate getting the specifics. Thanks guys (and gals)!

Leaving the court, then returning to be the first to touch was a POE last year. Look in the back of last year's rule book. (I'd provide a specific quote / page number, but I can't seem to find last year's books.)

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Leaving the court, then returning to be the first to touch was a POE last year. Look in the back of last year's rule book. (I'd provide a specific quote / page number, but I can't seem to find last year's books.)

"POE #5 (1999-2000)
There has been some confusion in recent years concerning whether a player may be the last person to touch the ball before stepping out-of-bounds and then be the first to touch the ball after returning in bounds.
It is legal, except when there is player control. A player who is dribbling (player control) and steps out of bounds during the dribble, even though he/she is not touching the ball at the time, has violated. A player who is holding the ball and steps out of bounds has obviously violated."

That's all there is.And it is not enough.
mick

[Brian Watson]

I see no mention of dribble in sit #2. As far as I am concerned, as long as he in legally back inbounds, he can touch it.

Maybe it is one of those "gotta see it" things, but what is the difference between a "fumble" and #2? I don't see one.

[mick]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
I see no mention of dribble in sit #2. As far as I am concerned, as long as he in legally back inbounds, he can touch it.

Maybe it is one of those "gotta see it" things, but what is the difference between a "fumble" and #2? I don't see one.

2) Same situation, but A1 controls the ball with both hands while still running (and contacting the floor), then tosses it softly so it stays on the court ....

Brian,
I read that as player control. Holding, or dribbling.
mick

[Brian Watson]

I guess I assumed there was no control because the kid is still running (sit says while still running), therefore if control was obtained one would call a travel before any other violations right?


Otherwise there is no control and no vilations.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick

Tossing the ball is not a fumble. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control.

2) Same situation, but A1 controls the ball with both hands while still running (and contacting the floor), then tosses it softly so it stays on the court ....

Brian,
I read that as player control. Holding, or dribbling.
mick

Yes, that is player control. But when he tosses the ball, he no longer has player control. Therefore, it's legal to go out unintentionally and come back in and be the first to touch the ball.

I don't think Todd meant to insintuate that the player traveled. He can run while he's holding the ball if he only takes one or two steps, depending on where his feet were when he caught the ball.

Todd, unless a player intentionally leaves the floor to decieve an opponent or gain an advantage, you shouldn't call a T. This seems to be one of the most confusing technical fouls for many officials. But a little common sense would go a long way. There's no T in this sitch.

Tony

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Yes, that is player control. But when he tosses the ball, he no longer has player control. Therefore, it's legal to go out unintentionally and come back in and be the first to touch the ball.

I don't think Todd meant to insintuate that the player traveled. He can run while he's holding the ball if he only takes one or two steps, depending on where his feet were when he caught the ball.

Todd, unless a player intentionally leaves the floor to decieve an opponent or gain an advantage, you shouldn't call a T. This seems to be one of the most confusing technical fouls for many officials. But a little common sense would go a long way. There's no T in this sitch.

Tony

If the player held the ball and passed it in bounds it is one of two things.
1.) It is the start of a dribble.
2.) it is a pass.

1.)Illegal if it is a start of a dribble, specifically, per POE last year, which states in part: It is legal, except when there is player control. A player who is dribbling (player control) and steps out of bounds during the dribble, even though he/she is not touching the ball at the time, has violated.

2.)Illegal if it is a pass, other than a Bat,specifically, then it too is noted in the same POE: It is legal, except when there is player control.

mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick

If the player held the ball and passed it in bounds it is one of two things.
1.) It is the start of a dribble.
2.) it is a pass.

1.)Illegal if it is a start of a dribble, specifically, per POE last year, which states in part: It is legal, except when there is player control. A player who is dribbling (player control) and steps out of bounds during the dribble, even though he/she is not touching the ball at the time, has violated.

2.)Illegal if it is a pass, other than a Bat,specifically, then it too is noted in the same POE: It is legal, except when there is player control.

mick

You're looking for stuff that isn't there, mick. These are legal plays.

A player who is dribbling (player control) and steps out of bounds during the dribble, even though he/she is not touching the ball at the time, has violated means that if the dribbler steps on the line between dribbles, it is still a violation. He doesn't have to touch the ball and step on the line at the same time. But this doesn't apply to an interrupted dribble.

If he tosses the ball and it touches the floor, he has started a dribble unless another player recovers the ball. Then we have a pass. If he goes OOB, comes back in and recovers the ball or comes back in and picks up the dribble again, we simply have an interrutped dribble. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Unless the player steps on the line while holding the ball or dribbling it, not an interrupted dribble as described above, he has not violated.

Tony

[Todd VandenAkker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't think Todd meant to insintuate that the player traveled.

Todd, unless a player intentionally leaves the floor to decieve an opponent or gain an advantage, you shouldn't call a T. This seems to be one of the most confusing technical fouls for many officials.

Right, I'm not talking about travelling. I'm talking about gaining player control by securing the ball before he goes out of bounds, then tossing it onto the court so he's not touching it when he IS out of bounds. Sounds like having controlled the ball, per se, before he went OOB is not a problem, but controlling it WHILE he touches OOB (like during a dribble) is the violation. Otherwise, he's OK depending on what he does with the ball. Oh, and I wasn't thinking "T" at all, since I'm talking about MOMENTUM carrying him OOB.

Bob, thanks for the reference to last year's book. THAT'S where I saw it. I'll grab that book out of my other office today and take a look. Thanks for all the responses, guys. I'm covering these situations at our meeting tonight (on the court, rather than in a meeting room), and wanted to be able to back up what I'm telling people.

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Jan 22nd, 2001 at 11:09 AM]