Sideline Throw-in -->deep (NFHS)

[mick]

On a Sideline Throw-in deep in the frontcourt, (Trail side) is it better to:

Switch -> Have Trail become New Lead and administer bounce pass from end line

Have Trail administer bounce pass from sideline.

If you prefer to switch, is the free-throw line extended the point of determination? (ie, above-->Trail; below --> New Lead)

mick

[zebraman]

I prefer to have the Trail administer in both 2-person and 3-person.

1) It's the correct way according to the NFHS officials manual.

2) It allows the lead to be concerned with play in his/her primary (which is where the most competitive matchups will likely be) with no thrower responsibilities.

Z

[Mark Dexter]

I'm tending to agree with zebraman - it's better to have trail do all the throw-ins, as it lets the lead look elsewhere. If the play develops on that side of the basket, the lead can always come strong-side (everyone does that in 2-person, right??).

When I worked 2-man crews, the big answer was 'it depends.' I generally had lead do a bounce pass on everything below the FT line extended, but it was hit or miss depending on my partner that night.

[WestPAref]

I don't see a need to switch ... the trail can clearly indicate the throw-in spot (even though it's from the sideline), tell the player inbounding the ball that you are going to take several steps towards the division line before giving him/her the ball and then do just that.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by zebraman
I prefer to have the Trail administer in both 2-person and 3-person.

1) It's the correct way according to the NFHS officials manual.

2) It allows the lead to be concerned with play in his/her primary (which is where the most competitive matchups will likely be) with no thrower responsibilities.

Z

It's NOT the correct way per NFHS - unless I'm misunderstanding your comment.

An official should take the inbound play on the line for which you are responsible. And if the throw-in is below the free throw line extended, the officials may need to switch.

I don't have a new book with me, but in the 2001-2003 NFHS Official's Manual, Diagram 22 explains this.

2-man: Ball out-of-bounds on the trail's sideline below the free throw line - Trail should move to the endline and become the new Lead while the Lead moves out onto the court and becomes the new Trail.

Good communication with your partner will get you into the right position. I've worked with some that were ready and implemented this position switch quickly and seamlessly. I've worked with others that insisted upon switching from one side of the court to the other so that the Trail would remain the Trail and Lead the Lead.

3-man changes everything. Lead just comes to the strong side where the ball is being inbounded and likely will take the inbounds play below the free throw line; Center backs out to become Trail. Previous Trail drops down to become new Center.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Aug 30th, 2004 at 06:17 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

It's NOT the correct way per NFHS - unless I'm misunderstanding your comment.

An official should take the inbound play on the line for which you are responsible. And if the throw-in is below the free throw line extended, the officials may need to switch.

I don't have a new book with me, but in the 2001-2003 NFHS Official's Manual, Diagram 22 explains this.

2-man: Ball out-of-bounds on the trail's sideline below the free throw line - Trail should move to the endline and become the new Lead while the Lead moves out onto the court and becomes the new Trail.

DownTownTonyBrown,
The Lead should go above the Free-throw line extended and force a switch (per Diagram 24), but the Trail is not required to drop down to force a switch (per Diagram 22).
Although, of course, Trail may force the switch, but there isn't any mechanic to suggest it, ...I think.
mick

[Kelvin green]

If the ball is going to be thrown in below FT line extended. The lead should administer the throw-in. Trail should not be bouncing the ball 20 plus ft on a throw-in. Let lead do it.

Personally I dont like the switch. If ball goes OOB on trail's side below FT line... Lead steps over and administers, Trail can step to other side of the floor (if he has to). Personally this is a perfect opportunity for both officials to administer using strong side mechanics, having both officials on same side of floor for the inbounds play that will be on that side.

[mick]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
If the ball is going to be thrown in below FT line extended. The lead should administer the throw-in. Trail should not be bouncing the ball 20 plus ft on a throw-in. Let lead do it.

Personally I dont like the switch. If ball goes OOB on trail's side below FT line... Lead steps over and administers, Trail can step to other side of the floor (if he has to). Personally this is a perfect opportunity for both officials to administer using strong side mechanics, having both officials on same side of floor for the inbounds play that will be on that side.

Kelvin,
Adding that mechanic puts a little crimp in the approved mechanics, I think. [Of course, that is a proper mechanic for three-whistle Women's ball.]
But in NFHS 2-whistle, if the Lead goes strong-side to administer the sideline, then the Lead owns that sideline (ie, Officials administer only their lines.)
The opposite sideline must then be the responsibility of the Trail, and a cross court throw-in to the opposite corner can find the Trail in a most awkward position to view a toe on the arc, or a tipped pass.

And, too, with the Trail administering deep, a 10'-15' bounce pass should give sufficient distance for the Trail to retreat. (Shucks, a typical bounce to a free-thrower is 15'-18'.)

mick

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by mick

Kelvin,
Adding that mechanic puts a little crimp in the approved mechanics, I think. [Of course, that is a proper mechanic for three-whistle Women's ball.]
But in NFHS 2-whistle, if the Lead goes strong-side to administer the sideline, then the Lead owns that sideline (ie, Officials administer only their lines.)
The opposite sideline must then be the responsibility of the Trail, and a cross court throw-in to the opposite corner can find the Trail in a most awkward position to view a toe on the arc, or a tipped pass.

And, too, with the Trail administering deep, a 10'-15' bounce pass should give sufficient distance for the Trail to retreat. (Shucks, a typical bounce to a free-thrower is 15'-18'.)

mick

Mick i am confused... My first statement was not much different than yours...

Lead goes over across the paint...He owns the new sideline
Trail steps to other side of floor... he now gets the other sideline...That is consistent with the mechanics book on normal positioning. Instead of trail stepping down to administer and "switch" with lead, we are just swapping sides of court.

There is no place in the federation book that states that one sideline belongs to a particular official. It is dependednt on who is on which side...(and balancing the floor)

If trail is administering sideline down low what do you do when there is pressure or something stupid happens? That is why I advocate lead taking it. If ball is near FT line extended or above Trail can take it. But if it is closer to the endline lead needs to officiate this.


Ball is being inbounded at about 3 ft above baseline and there is a problem (pressure from defense, not holding spot, etc) Trail administers and begins to back up and is someplace near the top of the key to 28' mark when this problem occurrs. Trail is now some 20ft away to call it. If administered by lead he is only 3 or 4 feet away.

The strong side mechanic I mentioed... I was only stating a personal preference based on NBA two man. I was not advocating with NF. 75% of the time we can even get a guy to go strong side in NF games even when the two low post players are beating each other up...

My two cents

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


I don't have a new book with me, but in the 2001-2003 NFHS Official's Manual, Diagram 22 explains this.

2-man: Ball out-of-bounds on the trail's sideline below the free throw line - Trail should move to the endline and become the new Lead while the Lead moves out onto the court and becomes the new Trail.


You need a 2003-2005 NFHS Officials Manual. Diagram 22 does not say that at all. Ball out-of-bounds on trail's sideline.. trail administers the throw-in no matter how deep it goes.

Z

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
If the ball is going to be thrown in below FT line extended. The lead should administer the throw-in. Trail should not be bouncing the ball 20 plus ft on a throw-in. Let lead do it.

Incorrect according to NFHS. See Diagram 22 in the NFHS Officials Manual (2003-2005). Trail takes all sideline throw-ins on "his/her" line. Of course you never bounce the ball 20-plus feet. You get reasonably close to do the bounce and then back up to widen vision.

Z

[mick]

Originally posted by Kelvin green

Mick i am confused... My first statement was not much different than yours...

Lead goes over across the paint...He owns the new sideline
Trail steps to other side of floor... he now gets the other sideline...That is consistent with the mechanics book on normal positioning. Instead of trail stepping down to administer and "switch" with lead, we are just swapping sides of court.

There is no place in the federation book that states that one sideline belongs to a particular official. It is dependednt on who is on which side...(and balancing the floor)

If trail is administering sideline down low what do you do when there is pressure or something stupid happens? That is why I advocate lead taking it. If ball is near FT line extended or above Trail can take it. But if it is closer to the endline lead needs to officiate this.


Ball is being inbounded at about 3 ft above baseline and there is a problem (pressure from defense, not holding spot, etc) Trail administers and begins to back up and is someplace near the top of the key to 28' mark when this problem occurrs. Trail is now some 20ft away to call it. If administered by lead he is only 3 or 4 feet away.

The strong side mechanic I mentioed... I was only stating a personal preference based on NBA two man. I was not advocating with NF. 75% of the time we can even get a guy to go strong side in NF games even when the two low post players are beating each other up...

My two cents

"If the ball is going to be thrown in below FT line extended. The lead should administer the throw-in. Trail should not be bouncing the ball 20 plus ft on a throw-in. Let lead do it." - Kelvin

I understand, Kelvin.
Now if you would have said "the New Lead (because of a switch) should administer the ball", then we have maintained the sideline of responsibility [Trail/New Lead] and not added any mechanics.

{A couple of us regularly work strong-side, two-man.
If during a strong-side scenario, the ball goes low and out-of-bounds, the Trail may merely point to the spot, give up his sideline and initiate the switch horizontally. (I think you and I would do that quite automatically, based on your last post.)}

My original question was not based on a strong-side scenario, but rather on a standard boxing in situation where the Lead and Trail may prefer to switch vertically [creating New Lead and New Trail] or may not switch at all. In either of these scenarios, the Trail/New Lead holds his line and the responsibility of the throw-in administration on that line.

mick

[Nevadaref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


I don't have a new book with me, but in the 2001-2003 NFHS Official's Manual, Diagram 22 explains this.

2-man: Ball out-of-bounds on the trail's sideline below the free throw line - Trail should move to the endline and become the new Lead while the Lead moves out onto the court and becomes the new Trail.


You need a 2003-2005 NFHS Officials Manual. Diagram 22 does not say that at all. Ball out-of-bounds on trail's sideline.. trail administers the throw-in no matter how deep it goes.

Z

Z, you have it by the book. According to NFHS mechanics ONLY the LEAD can initiate a sideline switch. Of course, this will only be done if the throw-in spot is above the free-throw line extended. If the OOB is below the FT line extended on the Lead's sideline or anywhere on the Trail's sideline, both officials stay put.