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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
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Originally posted by ChuckElias
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Originally posted by Lotto
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Originally posted by Dan_ref
Agree except #4 is always intentional if it's a "strategic" foul.
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I have to disagree with this. Whether a "strategic" foul is called intentional or not depends entirely on the nature of contact. The "strategic" part shoudln't come into it at all.
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Dan and I were fortunate enough to get an early preview of the NCAA tape that will be making the rounds of pre-season clinics tihs year. Hank Nicols talks about the importance of calling the intentional at the end of games. He shows examples (from the NCAA tourney, no less) where guys are not fouling hard, but are holding offensive players around the waist before the ball is released on the inbounds. His interp -- intentional.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Lotto. I'm just pointing out that the "strategic" foul is very often intentional. The defense is intentionally fouling to keep the clock from starting, even if the contact isn't all that hard. That's an intentional, even tho you wouldn't have called that level of contact a foul in the first quarter.
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I agree with Lotto on this one . A stategic foul may or may not be intentional. The example above of a foul on the in-bounds play before the ball gets thrown in is only one of the different strategic fouls. A strategic foul is definitely not always an intentional foul, imo. You make each call on it's own merits- nothing else. If a defender puts on a good show of going for the ball, I think that Hank Nicols will have YOUR balls if you call something like that "intentional". That's not the spirit and intent of the rule. The way I understand it is that they (both NCAA & NFHS) wanna go back to the way intentionals used to be called-i.e. regular foul if you go for the ball, and intentional foul if you grab a shirt or just wrap somebody up.
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I'm not saying *any* strategic foul is intentional, in fact I would be the first to say that strategic fouls are generally *not* intentional. One huge exception is the play we are discussing (#4 above):
A1 has the ball for a throw-in, B1 fouls A2 before the throw-in is complete (ie A1 is still holding the ball).
Maybe you can tell us why we need to consider whether B1 is "going for the ball" in this case?
Maybe you can tell us how, if B1 has his arms around A2's waist while yelling "HEY REF!!! LOOK!! LOOK! REF!!" this is anything BUT intentional?
That's all I'm saying, nothing more or less.