whats the call if any?

[Hawks Coach]

I coach a couple of physicial teams that have had a lot of physical match-ups, middle school age, serious bball. Yet to see a double foul in any game I have coached, or any of the older age groups at the tournaments I have attended. We're talking over 100 games this year, lots of different refs with different philosophies and tendencies.

Watch a lot of HS ball, haven't seen it there either in the past few years. Not gonna say it can't happen, but once a month is probably more than is called for or I would be seeing them called. Granted, I say this without benefit of seeing your games, let alone having to manage them.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 16th, 2001 at 02:01 PM]

[Brian Watson]

I don't think this is a "cop" out call, but I agree that they have to be used sparingly. I have called two this year (my first in probably two - three years), both were in the first week of games. Both were on very rough play underneath. Once I made the call, it was clean as a whistle the rest of the game. These are an example of where I used in as a game management technique, the trip prior both times I warned the players, and they gave me the deer-in-the-spotlight nod.

Hit them both and they know you're watching, hit only one, and the other feels shafted and is more determined to "get one" in. I almost rank this up there with preventative officiating.

[Sideline Ref]

my response was directed more towards mr watson and rainmaker and specifically mr watson
he stated that "you can always bust out a double" this was the type of answer i hoped i would not get
it was given without any basis at all

some of the later responses did try and explain when a double foul might be a good idea, however if all members of an officiating crew are making the calls instead of one ref picking up the slack the game would be a lot better controled and a double wouldn't be necessary to get game under control

also a foul is a foul and to say it would not give an advantage is wrong if enough fouls are called to get a game under control at some point it is going to give one team an advantage

it does appear there are some refs or at least some people who do know when to make the correct call which is why i posted here so i would at least have an idea why a call was made and if it was close to being correct

thanks for the replys
keep them coming

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I want to defend myself a little, here. I wouldn't call a double on the original play as described in this thread. That would definitely be a no-call in my book.

But I find a double very useful in the low post when the swimming starts. Each is busy putting the other as a disadvantage rather than playing position or hold their spot. One pushes the other's arm and before you can even blow, the other is bumping the one and by the time the whistle goes, they've each committed about three fouls. Calling a foul on one of them and not the other just seems to exacerbate the problem the next time down the floor. I find that a double cleans up the whole problem very fast. In fact, most times the coach will put them to guard someone else and use a different defense tactic.

I know I don't have as mych experience as a lot of you others, and it may be that when I am getting more varsity level games, I won't be using this as much, but right now I find it very helpful. I don't use it every week -- maybe about once a month, but I am always glad I did.

I'm NOT attacking you! I'm attacking the call.

Brian, when I see two guys STARTING to lean on each other, I let them know I'm watching and tell them to BOTH play straight-up. If they don't, I get the guy who starts it, and I firmly tell the guy who started to follow suit that I'm not putting up with that stuff and that they'll both get it the next time. Usually works pretty good.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 16th, 2001 at 02:27 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

my response was directed more towards mr watson and rainmaker and specifically mr watson
he stated that "you can always bust out a double" this was the type of answer i hoped i would not get
it was given without any basis at all

Sideline
My guess is that you're relatively new to this board, and it is always great to get fresh input. You have undoubtably noticed that some folks just rattle off the call rather than the reason on their initial response to a posting, which frequently leads to more discussion of the point, as occurred here. Having read brian and rainmaker's follow-ups, I hope you would agree that they do have a reason for their call and it is one way they deal with a game management issue. While you or I might not agree with their call if it happened in a game we are at, I think that they can justify the reason within the rules and within the concept of game management. Every ref has to set their own standards, especially in this gray area of incidental contact, advantage (O or D), or double foul.

And that final point was my initial point - we can't from the sidelines judge why a ref has made a specific call on these bang-bang plays. I believe that they are seeing much more than we tend to give them credit for.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I know I don't have as mych experience as a lot of you others, and it may be that when I am getting more varsity level games, I won't be using this as much, but right now I find it very helpful. I don't use it every week -- maybe about once a month, but I am always glad I did.

Juulie - FYI - Howard hates double fouls.

[williebfree]

..... And that final point was my initial point - we can't from the sidelines judge why a ref has made a specific call on these bang-bang plays. I believe that they are seeing much more than we tend to give them credit for.

I think he may be a referee reincarnate?????

MARK:.... And what would "Dave" say about this all...

[rainmaker]

Mark -- Thanks for the warning. I will definitely keep it in mind.

Others -- I will keep in mind the criticism and re-evaluate the next time I'm thinking about a double. I can see that it would be a real cop-out in some situations, but I have been complimented in some of the games where I called a double, so I don't think I'm using it that way.

I admit that I haven't always been good at keeping track of who "started it" in the low post. In a two-whistle crew, who watches the post when the ball is down near the three point line and the baseline? If I'm on lead on that side, I'm watching the ball, but the trail can't see the post, especially if the players are all on one side of the floor. This is when I see the most action in the post, because the ball is supposed to fall in toward the basket. But I can't keep track of it all, because I'm on-ball. I know this is a pre-game issue. How do I bring it up?

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Mark -- Thanks for the warning. I will definitely keep it in mind.

Others -- I will keep in mind the criticism and re-evaluate the next time I'm thinking about a double. I can see that it would be a real cop-out in some situations, but I have been complimented in some of the games where I called a double, so I don't think I'm using it that way.

I admit that I haven't always been good at keeping track of who "started it" in the low post. In a two-whistle crew, who watches the post when the ball is down near the three point line and the baseline? If I'm on lead on that side, I'm watching the ball, but the trail can't see the post, especially if the players are all on one side of the floor. This is when I see the most action in the post, because the ball is supposed to fall in toward the basket. But I can't keep track of it all, because I'm on-ball. I know this is a pre-game issue. How do I bring it up?

Jewel,
As your partners develop they will close down on the play from Trail, when all the players are on your Lead side, and they will be keyed on the post position.
If they are Lead, away from the ball, they will come over to make the ball side "a strongside" with two refs on one side of the lane.It'll come
mick

[Brian Watson]

I think a lot of it has to do with the area you are in, and the comfort level ofthe call. I wouldn't say a double is pushed here, but the interpreters want fouls called on all parties when needed. Like the play in the paint, when it is just mutual banging, they feel we should call doubles, the thinking being both players are responsible. Now if one uses their rump to clear out, pull the old swim move, etc. then you get that person.

I try to "talk" them out of fouls, but I know this was even discouraged a little this year, because the feeling (by the higher ups) was it has not worked in the past. We were "told" to hit the fox right off the bat.

On the fip side, when I was in IN, I was told you should rarely, if ever, have a double and never ever have a multiple.

A wise man once said officials should do what they are told by their (fill one in state, assignor, league).

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
A wise man once said officials should do what they are told by their (fill one in state, assignor, league).

And Mark has helped make it clear to me what my commissioner thinks about doubles. And you others are helping me see how to handle the situation in other ways. Just one more way this board is fantastic. Thanks, boys and girls!!

[Camron Rust]

A common technique to not call a double is to call the defender now and come right back out and watch them again and call the other player. Got em both. Message sent with out a "funny" call.