whats the call if any?

[Sideline Ref]

player passes ball in bounds. player on same team and player on opposing team attempt to catch it. they both collide without either catching the ball. a foul was called on opposing player. i have seen this happen before but wasn't sure of call.

[PAULK1]

I had this situation last week player A1 threw a long pass
A2 and B2 both running full speed hit each other head first
both went down one had a cut above the eye the other had
a busted lip blood every where. It took us about 10 min to clean every thing up. Since both were going for the ball
and and both were knocked out of the play and niether had actually gotten to the ball first I had a no call.

[Hawks Coach]

To make this call demands that the referee determine whether or not the contact was incidental. Within rule 4 there are some pertinent articles on incidental contact.

Rule 4 SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.

ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or such contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

Sideline - this is often a call that will drive one coach ballistic and have the other coach saying "great call ref." I have seen some pretty good collisions with no-calls, which is clearly ok by the rules. In the case you cite, the ref had to determine that one player had a more favorable position. If that player is denied the chance to catch the ball because of the contact, the ref should call a foul. I do believe that refs tend to give the benefit of doubt to the offense and good defense is sometimes unfairly punished. But it is equally true that in many cases, since the pass is to an offensive player, the offense will be in a favorable position. But if the defender breaks to the ball first and has the favorable position, the foul call can and should go against the offense (if any call is made).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Sideline Ref
player passes ball in bounds. player on same team and player on opposing team attempt to catch it. they both collide without either catching the ball. a foul was called on opposing player. i have seen this happen before but wasn't sure of call.

If either player had an advantage in getting to the ball, and the contact took away the advantage, then you have a foul. But if both players arrive at the same point at the same time, well, the coach said it. Incidental contact.

[Brian Watson]

If they arrive at the same time and you feel the need to call a foul, you can always bust out a double.

[rainmaker]

I LOVE a double foul. Everyone gets real quiet,because they are so startled. You report to the table very crisply, announce alternating possession, grab the ball, in-bound and GO!. Both coaches are breathless, because the opponent got a foul, and yet... by the time they figure it out, they should be yelling at the girls again. No one ever complains!! I LOVE a double foul!

[BktBallRef]

I think a better call would be either incidental contact or determine if one player was placed at more of a disadvantage than the other.

[Peter Devana]

I agree with bskbal ref-Generally no call.

[Hawks Coach]

While the rules on double foul might support that call, it seems that the Article 2 under incidental contact strongly discourages it.

Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or such contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

To have a personal foul, you must impair the ability to perform normal offensive and defensive movements. The double personal foul is a simultaneous violation and affects both players' ability to perform normal offensive or defensive movements. The incidental contact provision strongly suggests that you do not have a foul when players have contact (even severe) from equally favorable positions. It seems to me that the double foul then applies to more intentional violations, like simultaneous pushes, a push and grab occurring simultaneously, etc.

Two players going strong for the ball and colliding with no advantage either way, no call in my book.

[Sideline Ref]

thanks for the responses
some of you have been very helpful,
while some have given responses to which i am accustom.
it appears these refs either dont know the
rules or dont want to try and make the correct call

again thanks

[Hawks Coach]

it appears these refs either dont know the
rules or dont want to try and make the correct call

I don't know what can lead you to draw this conclusion based on the flow of discussion on this board. Your referees have a different position and therefore a different view of the play than you do - either two or three different views. I should also add that their views are not biased. When in doubt, refs will favor the offense if it looks like the offense had any kind of advantage and the defense came into them. I can't say that the refs got this one wrong without having seen the play, and even if I saw it, I may not have seen what they saw.

[Brian Watson]

While it is rare, I use the double more as a game management tool. I have had games where two kids go up, and suddenly my game looks like aussie rules football.

I would rather hit them both at the time, then have a brawl later. Testosterone does not know the meaning of incidental.

[Hawks Coach]

Point taken - if you know why and when you are using it, go for it. I think that many double foul situations are going to be no advantage either way, just need to get the players under control.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I LOVE a double foul. Everyone gets real quiet,because they are so startled. You report to the table very crisply, announce alternating possession, grab the ball, in-bound and GO!. Both coaches are breathless, because the opponent got a foul, and yet... by the time they figure it out, they should be yelling at the girls again. No one ever complains!! I LOVE a double foul!

I think I've called one double foul in 7 years. I don't like them at all. To me, it's kind of a "cop-out". In my own opinion, a referee calls a double foul under these circumstances:

1.) You've tried to talk two players out of a foul,
2.) you've been unsuccessful, and
3.) you realize that if you would have called a foul on either A1 or B1 to begin with (like you should have!) you wouldn't be in this mess!

[rainmaker]

I want to defend myself a little, here. I wouldn't call a double on the roiginal play as described in this thread. That would definitely be a no-call in my book.

But I find a double very useful in the low post when the swimming starts. Each is busy putting the other as a disadvantage rather than playing position or hold their spot. One pushes the other's arm and before you can even blow, the other is bumping the one and by the time the whistle goes, they've each committed about three fouls. Calling a foul on one of them and not the other just seems to exacerbate the problem the next time down the floor. I find that a double cleans up the whole problem very fast. In fact, most times the coach will put them to guard someone else and use a different defense tactic.

I know I don't have as mych experience as a lot of you others, and it may be that when I am getting more varsity level games, I won't be using this as much, but right now I find it very helpful. I don't use it every week -- maybe about once a month, but I am always glad I did.