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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 09:41am
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when both A1 and B1 go for rebound, if A1 grabs the ball with on hand but before A1 is able to secure it with 2 hands, B1, while also goes for the ball, hit A1's arm (accidentally or not) and A1 lose the ball. Is this contact legal in the following scenarios:

1. A1's arm is in his vertical plane.
2. A1's arm is in B1's vertical plane.
3. A1's arm is in neither. (Nor B1's arm).

Alos are there any ruling differences in NCAA, NBA and FIBA?

Thanks for your help to clarify this for me.

ysong
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 09:54am
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Hitting the arm on a rebound to prevent the other player from securing the ball woould be a foul. If they are tangled up and the ball is loose you may have incidental.

Based on the three scenarios you called. It would be a foul.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 10:43am
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But if A1's arm (that with the ball) is in B1's vertical plane, I think B1 is absovled from any responsibitity of the contact, is that right?

Thanks.

ysong
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 11:42am
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No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 01:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
Kelvin, I think that you need to re-read NFHS rule 4-44. Especially 4-44-2,3,4& 5.

Rule 4-44-2 - "From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane".
Rule 4-42-3- "The hands or arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air".
Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".
Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."

Once you've established LGP, you OWN the air above you.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
Kelvin, I think that you need to re-read NFHS rule 4-44. Especially 4-44-2,3,4& 5.

Rule 4-44-2 - "From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane".
Rule 4-42-3- "The hands or arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air".
Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".
Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."

Once you've established LGP, you OWN the air above you.
You also own that cone around you.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
Kelvin, I think that you need to re-read NFHS rule 4-44. Especially 4-44-2,3,4& 5.

Rule 4-44-2 - "From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane".
Rule 4-42-3- "The hands or arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air".
Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".
Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."

Once you've established LGP, you OWN the air above you.
It doesn't say that.

It says you can jump or raise your arms. It doesn't say you can knock someone else's arms out of that area.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
Kelvin, I think that you need to re-read NFHS rule 4-44. Especially 4-44-2,3,4& 5.

Rule 4-44-2 - "From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane".
Rule 4-42-3- "The hands or arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air".
Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".
Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."

Once you've established LGP, you OWN the air above you.
It doesn't say that.

It says you can jump or raise your arms. It doesn't say you can knock someone else's arms out of that area.
Disagree. It certainly does say that in the cites above. The defender can jump vertically and then legally occupy the space within his/her vertical plane. Not some of the space, Camron. All of the space. It also says the defender should NOT be penalized for having his/her hands within his/her vertical plane, but you're saying that maybe a defensive player can be penalized for knocking an opponent's arm(s) out of their vertical plane. That's a direct contravention of that cite. The offensive player is also the one causing contact in the defender's vertical plane by being where they aren't legally allowed to be. Pretty specific language, I think.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]
You also own that cone around you.

[/B][/QUOTE]Vertical cone, not horizontal cone. Or oblique cone?
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:02pm
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Thanks Jurassic Referee for clarifying this.

If the player owns his vertical space and he is entitled the right to raise his arms in this space to initiate contact without penalty, does that means a shooter is allowed to raise his non-shooting arm *within his vertical plane* to fend off defender's blocking arm?

the NCAA rules does not mention "vertical right" at all in this artical:

Personal Fouls
Section 18. By Players
Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and hand to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal.

Thanks.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
No...

Verticality applies to players jumping up, defending etc.

and just because there is a body part in a "person's verticality" does not geive the person free license to create contact... I am reaching for a ball getting near your vertical space, does not give you free reign to knock my hand away

A player who is taller grabs ball above another player clearly in vertical space... that does not give the right to that person to knock ball away unfettered.

Dont read too much into verticality. Making contact and causing a disadvantage is a foul on another player.
Kelvin, I think that you need to re-read NFHS rule 4-44. Especially 4-44-2,3,4& 5.

Rule 4-44-2 - "From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane".
Rule 4-42-3- "The hands or arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air".
Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".
Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."

Once you've established LGP, you OWN the air above you.
What did I miss here? My post stated that verticlaity has to do with jumping up and playing defense. Never once did I say that defense should be penalized for having arms raised in vertical plane.

What I did say is that just because you are entitled to verticality does not give you the free reign to do what ever you want. Like Hit the arm of a player who is in your space just because it is there.

Look at Rule 4-42-5- where is says "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."... Does not say anything about A grabbing the ball and getting hit. it just says A cannot contact!.

If there is no contact there is no foul so I can reach into your cone or verticality.

So the next time a A1 reaches out over a short defender I now have to call "over the back" since A1 violated B's verticality. In fact when B1 then grabs A's arms that are a foot above B's head and knocks the ball lose. I will need to call the intentional foul on A1 for intentionally violating B1's space and give B 2 shots and the ball since A had no right to grab the ball in the protected cone/cylinder.

as a player is holding the ball above his head or close to his body and defender reaches out into the cone/vertical and ties up a player we now have a foul on the defense, and in fact A can use a reasonable method to ensure that B doesnt reach into his vertical space and grab the ball

If that what the rules states then I guess I do need to go back and reread the rule. I guess the Iraqi sun made me sort of like crazy or something.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
Thanks Jurassic Referee for clarifying this.

If the player owns his vertical space and he is entitled the right to raise his arms in this space to initiate contact without penalty, does that means a shooter is allowed to raise his non-shooting arm *within his vertical plane* to fend off defender's blocking arm?

the NCAA rules does not mention "vertical right" at all in this artical:

Personal Fouls
Section 18. By Players
Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and hand to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal.

The citation that you are using above usually refers to a dribbler or shooter using their off-arm outside of their "verticality" to gain an advantage by keeping a defender away from the ball. If the defender reaches into the vertical space directly over the top of a player with the ball, then any subsequent contact- if called- would be on the defender. It all falls in line with the concept that every player on the court who has established a legal position, including the player with the ball, has an equal right to be unhindered in the space directly above them.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
[/B]
1) If there is no contact there is no foul so I can reach into your cone or verticality.

2) So the next time a A1 reaches out over a short defender I now have to call "over the back" since A1 violated B's verticality.

3) as a player is holding the ball above his head or close to his body and defender reaches out into the cone/vertical and ties up a player we now have a foul on the defense, and in fact A can use a reasonable method to ensure that B doesnt reach into his vertical space and grab the ball

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Any player can reach into any other's players vertical space above that player any time that they want to. No contact = no foul. Contact = foul ( or no call) on the player reaching into the other player's vertical space.

2)If there is contact after a player reaches over a short player, and that contact occurs in the vertical space above the short player, then- by rule- the illegal contact is always called on the player going "over the back". The foul isn't for "over the back" with no contact involved; the foul is for any illegal contact that occurs in the short player's vertical space.

3) If a defender legally ties up the ball, it is a jump ball- no matter where the hands are. If the defender makes illegal contact while trying to tie up the ball, it is a foul on the defender- again no matter where the hands are.

Nothing's changed on this rule that I know of. Been called this way for many years.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:33pm
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Thanks to Jurassic Referee for your convicing explanation.

would you please help me with one of my other recent posts too: "why post player backing-in toward basket is legal in NBA?"

I believe "backing-in" is illegal in NCAA or FIBA, is that right?

Thanks in advance.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 21, 2004, 04:38pm
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So then Jurassic Ref, put in other words, are you saying that if an offensive rebounder jumps into the vertical cone of a denfensive rebounder to grab a rebound, then the defensive rebounder has THE RIGHT to use his hands in his vertical cone to hit the offensive rebounder's rebounding arm(s) in order and with the express intention to knock the ball loose out of his hands?




[Edited by ShoeBall on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:42 PM]
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