What do I tell the coach?

[lrpalmer3]

Okay, as the trail you are standing near to the coach and he draws your attention to the foot obviously over the line. Are you forced to call it? If not, now what?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Okay, as the trail you are standing near to the coach and he draws your attention to the foot obviously over the line. Are you forced to call it? If not, now what?

I'm left wondering why we want to let the coaches operate our whistles for us?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Okay, as the trail you are standing near to the coach and he draws your attention to the foot obviously over the line. Are you forced to call it? If not, now what?

First of all, I am not forced to call anything. Just because a coach says something, does not mean it is actually taking place. If I did not see it the way the coach did, I do not do what the coach thinks I should do.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

I've sometimes said:

Coach, I've passed on the same thing for your team on the other end. I'll call the ones that affect the play.

(Only when it's true though).

I very often pass on lane violations where the players along the lane are touching the line dividing the spaces. I also pass on violations where players outside the 3-point arc pass the arc a little early or are touching the line....if they are simply drifting down to take the ball OOB after the shot. If they are crashing the boards, I call it.

[Schradog]

I feel like if the trail has an opportunity to interrupt the shooter and get his feet back prior to the shot going up, then that would prevent the white lie, and keep the shooter within the rule. If the trail DOESN'T have that opportunity, I'd go with the "I didn't see it."

[lrpalmer3]

Why do you all still feel this is a judgement call. Everyone in the whole gym, including you, can see that the guys foot is over the line which is a violation.

Explain to me how that's a judgement call, then we can go further.

[lrpalmer3]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I've sometimes said:

Coach, I've passed on the same thing for your team on the other end. I'll call the ones that affect the play.

Thanks Camron, these are the responses I was looking for. Anything else like this? Has anyone gotten in trouble saying this?

[WeekendRef]

quote:
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Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Okay, as the trail you are standing near to the coach and he draws your attention to the foot obviously over the line. Are you forced to call it? If not, now what?
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posted by Jrutledge
"First of all, I am not forced to call anything. Just because a coach says something, does not mean it is actually taking place. If I did not see it the way the coach did, I do not do what the coach thinks I should do."




A stationary player with his foot on the line (Or over the line) is normally not a judgement call...it is on the line or is not . Not a lot of wiggle room on that one . What you do about it when you see it (and the coach see's it) was the question that was posed . I don't think you have to do "what the coach thinks I should do" there are some ways to handle this as noted in the prior replies .

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WeekendRef


A stationary player with his foot on the line (Or over the line) is normally not a judgement call...it is on the line or is not . Not a lot of wiggle room on that one . What you do about it when you see it (and the coach see's it) was the question that was posed . I don't think you have to do "what the coach thinks I should do" there are some ways to handle this as noted in the prior replies .

It is a judgment call if you think that is the case or not. I have had coaches tell me they thought a player had their foot on the line, when I clearly saw something else. So yes, it can be a judgment call. But just because they claim something, does not make it true.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

First, everyone in the gym is capable of seeing the foot on the line, but in reality, nobody in the gym is looking at the player on the 3 point line if they haven't been going after rebounds. Also, everybody in the gym is theoretically capable of knowing and understanding the rule on this play, but few actually do.

So what you have is something that you see that is a minor technical violation of a rule with no impact on the play. The rule exists for a purpose, to prevent an unfair advantage. But if the player stays out of the play, then they haven't gained an advantage. If the player is pushing their limits to e the first one to a long rebound, they have gained an advantage.

Here is where the judgement in this call really lies. Judge whether or not this "violation" impacted the play in any way, and therefore if this is a call you really need to make. Call what matters, not every technical rules violation you can see. You are not the local health department inspector, you are refereeing a basketball game. Don't make it harder, or more nit-picky, than it has to be.

Now when you add "the opposing coach saw it" into the description of the situation, it makes it a bit tougher. I am not a big advocate of telling coaches that you pass on certain things (especially if he is already a whiner/howler). Good coaches know this anyway and aren't looking for that call. They are also paying attention to what matters in the game. So telling an uninformed coach that it is your job to exercise judgment in what to call can get dicey - you decide if that is where you want to be. It is a simple enough thing to use another out so you don't have to go down that path - "thanks Coach, I'll look for it next time" is one I have heard used frequently - shut em up without being completely non-responsive or combative.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
First, everyone in the gym is capable of seeing the foot on the line, but in reality, nobody in the gym is looking at the player on the 3 point line if they haven't been going after rebounds. Also, everybody in the gym is theoretically capable of knowing and understanding the rule on this play, but few actually do.

I tell you where it is a judgment call. It is not completely uncommon to have a shoe where it curves near the toe. I have seen coaches claim the foot was on the line, when you look at another angle, the toe is over the line. This is just one of many reasons I do not listen to coaches for what took place.

Peace

[Robmoz]

Well, when I am administering the free throws, I tend to say to the players.."Alright we have 1-1, mind your toes, let the ball hit and don't come in too early" or something to that effect. If I then see a violation I DO CALL IT because it is a rule violation and I do not selectively enforce the rules. I do not see that as a judgement call which is clearly altogether different. It is much easier to call a clearcut rule violation and remove the wind from a coach's arguement then to try to judge if a violoation MIGHT have an effect on a play, not make the call and then wait for the next incident to blow up in our face with no rule support. I do not have a crystal ball and will not assume anything.

It's simple, see the violation, call the violation - that is our job. Do not confuse judgement calls with rule enforcement. One thing is for sure, be consistent with the way you handle these issues. At least a coach (good or bad) can deal with consistency better perhaps better than trying to argue selective enforement.

[Edited by Robmoz on May 26th, 2004 at 02:02 PM]

[lrpalmer3]

Originally posted by JRutledge
It is not completely uncommon to have a shoe where it curves near the toe. I have seen coaches claim the foot was on the line, when you look at another angle, the toe is over the line. This is just one of many reasons I do not listen to coaches for what took place.

Peace [/B]

I have already clarified several times that the foot IS over the line. Why are you talking about angles and shoe curvature?

Originally posted by Robmoz
If I then see a violation I DO CALL IT because it is a rule violation and I do not selectively enforce the rules. It's simple, see the violation, call the violation - that is our job. Do not confuse judgement calls with rule enforcement.

I understand your opinion and respect refs who feel this way, but this post is not for you. I am speaking to refs who do selectively enforce, as the first post states.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
...Here is where the judgement in this call really lies. Judge whether or not this "violation" impacted the play in any way, and therefore if this is a call you really need to make. Call what matters, not every technical rules violation you can see.

Don't call unless impacted the play? What about the lazy inbound that is made after a basket while the flow clearly has gone back down the court. Everyone in that end of the gym sees the violation, yet no impact on the "play", you let it go time and time again. Why, because you deemed it not necessary to the game? Puhleeeeeze, use judgement on judgement calls but call violations as they occur because THAT IS part of the game and I do not buy into the notion that such calls take away from the game. Do not start down a slippery slope of selective enforcement you will regret that you ever left your roots.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Robmoz
Well, when I am administering the free throws, I tend to say to the players.."Alright we have 1-1, mind your toes, let the ball hit and don't come in too early" or something to that effect.

This is what many observers refer to as (pardon the indelicacy) "diarrhea of the mouth". The only thing that needs to be said when administering FTs is the number that will be shot.

As far as calling that toe on the line that doesn't affect the play, I like Camron's statement, "I've given your guys the benefit of the doubt too, Coach".