Coach Management

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ace
The score board was to my back... meaning it was on a side-wall and I could not see it. It seemed during this whole "situation" that I was table side (which is where the clock was) and didnt have a chance to see what the time was. I would normally NEVER bail a coach out with a T because his team is down by 20+ points with 2 minutes left to go in the game. Which is why I told Hewitt that I wouldnt have t'd him had I know what the score was. This game was a fast moving games and both teams were playing really well it just so happend one team was down by 24 (when i dropped the T- ended up down by 40 point difference). Soft stop sign ... Usually two hands (something a DI NCAA official taught me (Tim Marion) and isnt force ful just a light raising of the hands.
A hard stop sign usualy one handed is the typical STOP! sign. I knew the coach was loosing and I figured thats why he was on my case I just didnt know how bad.

Does that help you folks out? Just ask Brad, no one can understand me in person let alone online :-D

Let's see the scoreboard was behind you and stayed there, so you never had a foul switch? There was never a dead ball? There was never the slightest lull in the action to look at the clock?

You had no feel for the time or the score and you gave a non-warning. Those are MUCH bigger issues than whacking a coach late in a blowout.

[ace]

The game was moving fast... I had a general sense of the time. We'd run down the court one team would shoot or miss and we'd turn and run back down the other side. For me to look at the clock I would phyically have to turn ALL the way around and then look up and porbably step back because it was an LED clock 5 feet above my head on a wall probably 4 feet behind me. Two aggressive and quick teams.. .yeah I'm gunna do what everyone tells you not to do- TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!! i dont think so. I did what I did... I could handled it differently. Nuff said.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ace
The game was moving fast... I had a general sense of the time. We'd run down the court one team would shoot or miss and we'd turn and run back down the other side. For me to look at the clock I would phyically have to turn ALL the way around and then look up and porbably step back because it was an LED clock 5 feet above my head on a wall probably 4 feet behind me. Two aggressive and quick teams.. .yeah I'm gunna do what everyone tells you not to do- TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!! i dont think so. I did what I did... I could handled it differently. Nuff said.

So you are saying that in 6 minutes, or 14 minutes, or in 18 minutes that got you to under 2 minutes you never had a chance to see the clock? Okay. How do you see the clock when you have two clocks on either end, then? Yeah this clock was so poorly placed that it was completely impossible to see from any spot on the floor, without turning around completely. Right.

A coach never gets a soft warning, then a hard warning, and you even suggested an even more stern warning instead of the T, that means you NEVER warned the coach.

Why do I get the feeling that you only posted this to name drop, the camp, the GT coach, and the D1 official.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ace
The game was moving fast... I had a general sense of the time. We'd run down the court one team would shoot or miss and we'd turn and run back down the other side. For me to look at the clock I would phyically have to turn ALL the way around and then look up and porbably step back because it was an LED clock 5 feet above my head on a wall probably 4 feet behind me. Two aggressive and quick teams.. .yeah I'm gunna do what everyone tells you not to do- TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!! i dont think so. I did what I did... I could handled it differently. Nuff said.

John,

Sounds like you had a good learning experience, you decided you needed to take care of business and you did. If the GT coach was there this must have been an ncaa sanctioned event. If you worked an ncaa sanctioned event somebody decided you could handle it. Bet you saw a lot of good ball!

[ace]

Blindzebra- your accusations offend me greatly. You’re questioning my integrity which also offends me. You having a bad night or something? You want to personally attack me like you did take it off of the board. I don’t think highly of people who handle this kind of business in public.


If you wish to say anything further to me please send me an email. I tried to do the same but you have this disabled on your account.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ace
Blindzebra- your accusations offend me greatly. You’re questioning my integrity which also offends me. You having a bad night or something? You want to personally attack me like you did take it off of the board. I don’t think highly of people who handle this kind of business in public.


If you wish to say anything further to me please send me an email. I tried to do the same but you have this disabled on your account.

John -- I don't always agree with you about the details, but I gotta say, this is a very, very good post. You can't have been too far off base with the coach, if this is how well you handle this kind of attack on the board.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

John -- I don't always agree with you about the details, but I gotta say, this is a very, very good post. You can't have been too far off base with the coach, if this is how well you handle this kind of attack on the board.

You did not see his first draft that was deleted before this one replaced it. I did and it was not so genteel.

It was not an attack it was an observation, perhaps re-reading the earlier posts would shed light on why I came to that conclusion.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[BJohn -- I don't always agree with you about the details, but I gotta say, this is a very, very good post. You can't have been too far off base with the coach, if this is how well you handle this kind of attack on the board. [/B]

I can't believe you would even post this when I tried to do exactly what ace said and email you off of the board. I still haven't heard anything yet. -edit- If you agree then agree.

I wanted to edit this post after I left the house this morning. I don't want to make it seem as though I'm attacking Rainmaker but this is something I tried to handle off line.
Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes. Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes). I have T'd a coach up with .6 on the clock but he came at me with some profanity that I will not even try to repeat. I have also let a coach sit there and watch his team get blown out instead of helping him to the locker room early. The two main things are: we have to be aware of the game situation and manage it accordingly whether you decide to issue a T or not and I don't know if yelling "that's an And 1" warrants a T. Of course typing what the coach said does not always convey how it came across live. This is not a personal attack on Ace or anyone else but some things said just don't jive with me (not talking about Ace).

[Edited by tomegun on May 14th, 2004 at 08:26 AM]

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by ace
The game was moving fast... I had a general sense of the time. We'd run down the court one team would shoot or miss and we'd turn and run back down the other side. For me to look at the clock I would phyically have to turn ALL the way around and then look up and porbably step back because it was an LED clock 5 feet above my head on a wall probably 4 feet behind me. Two aggressive and quick teams.. .yeah I'm gunna do what everyone tells you not to do- TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!! i dont think so. I did what I did... I could handled it differently. Nuff said.

John,

No matter how fast the game is moving you HAVE to know what is going on with the clock. We have talked before about the NBA refs and those guys along with a majority of D1 guys could tell you down to the second what time is on the clock at any point in the game. I would take this as a learning experience with game management. I have been learning to always take my eyes off the players to look at the clock every transition. Just something to think about...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tomegun

I can't believe you would even post this when I tried to do exactly what ace said and email you off of the board. I still haven't heard anything yet. -edit- If you agree then agree. I wanted to edit this post after I left the house this morning. I don't want to make it seem as though I'm attacking Rainmaker but this is something I tried to handle off line. I don't want to make it seem as though I'm attacking Rainmaker but this is something I tried to handle off line.

Tom -- I tried to reply privately to your e-mail, but it bounced back twice. I'm not sure why.

Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes.

I'm not sure what I agreed with that you're objecting to. Ace posted a description of why it happened, and it implied that he felt he had goofed. You then posted that you thought he had goofed. Your description of why matched what Ace had described. I sort of sarcastically pointed out that you were repeating what Ace had just said. That's all. I didn't agree with him, and I didn't disagree with him. I didn't agree with you, and I didn't disagree with you.

Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes).

I agree. And I think Ace saw that, too, and has been trying to agree with that.

I have T'd a coach up with .6 on the clock but he came at me with some profanity that I will not even try to repeat. I have also let a coach sit there and watch his team get blown out instead of helping him to the locker room early. The two main things are: we have to be aware of the game situation and manage it accordingly whether you decide to issue a T or not and I don't know if yelling "that's an And 1" warrants a T. Of course typing what the coach said does not always convey how it came across live. This is not a personal attack on Ace or anyone else but some things said just don't jive with me (not talking about Ace).

I don't understand why you're so upset about this, but if you'll tell me what the problem is, I'll be glad to try and work out some sort of resolution. I don't see you as attacking anyone, and I don't think I attacked anyone eityer. What should I do differently next time so that this doesn't happen again?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You did not see his first draft that was deleted before this one replaced it. I did and it was not so genteel.

It was not an attack it was an observation, perhaps re-reading the earlier posts would shed light on why I came to that conclusion.

You're right, I didn't see an earlier post by Ace that was hostile. He must have deleted it before I read his later one. I have read all the posts, and I see why you disagreed with his T on the coach. and I see why you feel he fell down on the job. I also think you could have worded it a little more gently, especially since he has admitted several times that he too thinks the technical was a mistake.

This sort of sentence,

"Yeah this clock was so poorly placed that it was completely impossible to see from any spot on the floor, without turning around completely. Right."

... feels like an attack on Ace. If you didn't intend it to feel that way, okay, then you need to back off a little and apologize, not defend yourself. Ace isn't defending his mistake in calling a T. He has admitted several times that it was a mistake. Why are you continuing to criticize?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]

Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes. Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes).

[/B][/QUOTE]Tom, I think that Ace posted this knowing that he really didn't do a very good job of handling this sitch.I think that he just wanted a little feedback from his peers. It was a learning situation for him, just as it was for us when we did the exact same type of thing in our formative years. To be quite honest, I don't like second-guessing any official who hands out a T in the type of situation that Ace described. I also don't like getting on his butt that much either- mainly because he was there and I wasn't, and I can't possibly know every nuance of everything that was going down.

Having said that, I also think that Ace posted this sitch looking for honest feedback on how to handle the play better next time. He did get honest feedback, even though it was pretty blunt at times. Now it's up to Ace to sift through all the replies and pick out what HE thinks will help him out the most next time that he finds himself in a situation like this. It's called "learning through experience". And we all went through it. And we're all STILL going through it, whether we want to admit it or not.

[tomegun]

Rainmaker, I sent you an email.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You're right, I didn't see an earlier post by Ace that was hostile. He must have deleted it before I read his later one. I have read all the posts, and I see why you disagreed with his T on the coach. and I see why you feel he fell down on the job. I also think you could have worded it a little more gently, especially since he has admitted several times that he too thinks the technical was a mistake.

This sort of sentence,

"Yeah this clock was so poorly placed that it was completely impossible to see from any spot on the floor, without turning around completely. Right."

... feels like an attack on Ace. If you didn't intend it to feel that way, okay, then you need to back off a little and apologize, not defend yourself. Ace isn't defending his mistake in calling a T. He has admitted several times that it was a mistake. Why are you continuing to criticize?

I'd did not take exception to the T, I took exception to the game management in this situation.

I suppose Ace's replies with, "AND TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!!!" "I DONT THANK SO!!!" just passed you by? Yeah, I worded it strongly and if anyone was offended, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry for my observation. It's there and it is not the first time either.

[ace]

The post in which you are refereeing to (the hostile one) was probably up on the board for a total of 3 minutes. I had ment to not even hit post which is why I deleted it and replaced it with the calmer one. Lets just all drop it and move on. What stays in this thread stays in this thread because I'd hate for this to carry out of here onto other parts of the board. This is my last post in this thread.

I will also say that officiting is one of the few things in life that I can be bluntly hoenst about when I screw something up... And like i've said a few times already in this thread, I screwed up.