again...jump shooter jumps into defense

[zanzibar]

Thanks for everyone's responses on this topic. I'm still trying to clarify the rules that apply to this play. I was searching the books today trying to support a decision on this topic.
Situation: B1 goes airborne to defend a possible shot by A1. B1 leaves the ground first and A1 fakes a shot. After B1 is airborne A1 jumps into B1. In the ref's judgment no contact would have occurred if A1 does not jump in.

This is my opinion and why I would rule this way:

1. Once B1 goes into the air A1 has to allow him to land unless A1 was in this space before B1 became airborne. I know A1 has the ball and is a shooter, but I don't think it has any bearing on this play.
2. 4-19-1 says... it is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive movements.

I think most of the time this play would be a no call.
I don't think it makes a difference whether A1 jumps forward or sideways.
Comments..... Agree or disagree?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Thanks for everyone's responses on this topic. I'm still trying to clarify the rules that apply to this play. I was searching the books today trying to support a decision on this topic.
Situation: B1 goes airborne to defend a possible shot by A1. B1 leaves the ground first and A1 fakes a shot. After B1 is airborne A1 jumps into B1. In the ref's judgment no contact would have occurred if A1 does not jump in.

This is my opinion and why I would rule this way:

1. Once B1 goes into the air A1 has to allow him to land unless A1 was in this space before B1 became airborne. I know A1 has the ball and is a shooter, but I don't think it has any bearing on this play.
2. 4-19-1 says... it is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive movements.

I think most of the time this play would be a no call.
I don't think it makes a difference whether A1 jumps forward or sideways.
Comments..... Agree or disagree?

On the other hand B1 is responsible for contact if he does not stay verticle, regardless of who jumped first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

On the other hand B1 is responsible for contact if he does not stay verticle, regardless of who jumped first. [/B][/QUOTE]Agreed, his "cone of verticality" has illegally horizontalized into an opponent's "cone of verticality".

[canuckrefguy]

Ask yourself two questions:

Does B1 have legal guarding position?

Who initiated the contact?

In this case, B1 does have position, provided he is airborne in a vertical manner. Even if B1 goes airborne first, if A1 enters B1's cone , it's either A1's foul or no foul at all.

We see this kind of thing a lot when one player shot fakes another off their feet. MOST of the time, the defender is off-balance, is not vertical, and winds up landing on the shooter, or pushes him. But the odd time the defender manages to stay vertical - the shooter tries to draw the foul by jumping into the defender, and (hopefully) we pass on the foul.

The problem is, very few fans, coaches, and players understand why there is no defensive foul - so often, all they think is their player got mugged and we didn't call anything.

This falls nicely under my signature....

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by zanzibar
In the ref's judgment no contact would have occurred if A1 does not jump in.

Balance this, of course, with the fact that B1 does not have LGP --- most of the time, I think this comes out of the mixer as a no call.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

On the other hand B1 is responsible for contact if he does not stay verticle, regardless of who jumped first. [/B]

Agreed, his "cone of verticality" has illegally horizontalized into an opponent's "cone of verticality". [/B][/QUOTE]

oh no, not again

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

On the other hand B1 is responsible for contact if he does not stay verticle, regardless of who jumped first. [/B]

Agreed, his "cone of verticality" has illegally horizontalized into an opponent's "cone of verticality". [/B][/QUOTE]

You, JR, are a diagonal dexter-head...but you make us all laugh so bring on the brown-pops!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
[/B]

You, JR, are a diagonal dexter-head

[/B][/QUOTE]Well, that's a first. Gotta admit that I've never been called a diagonal dexter-head before. That's gotta be a T on someone!

Everybody out there all set to warmly welcome A-Rod back tonight, Rock?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad

Agreed, his "cone of verticality" has illegally horizontalized into an opponent's "cone of verticality". [/B]

You, JR, are a diagonal dexter-head...but you make us all laugh so bring on the brown-pops!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Nah, he's an oblique dexter head.

...and he doesn't make us ALL laugh...

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee


Everybody out there all set to warmly welcome A-Rod back tonight, Rock?

We're ready...not that we have a chance of winning, but A-Rod's been a crowd "favorite" since going to Texas... we aren't quite as rude and obnoxious as NY or Philly fans, but we can be pretty creative when we need to...just look at last night's game - we had Vanna White throw out the ceremonial first pitch!!! Bet you wish you'dve been there!!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad

We're ready...not that we have a chance of winning, but A-Rod's been a crowd "favorite" since going to Texas... we aren't quite as rude and obnoxious as NY or Philly fans, but we can be pretty creative when we need to...just look at last night's game - we had Vanna White throw out the ceremonial first pitch!!! Bet you wish you'dve been there!!!

Vanna! Really! Cool....

Vanna really turns my letters!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad

We're ready...not that we have a chance of winning, but A-Rod's been a crowd "favorite" since going to Texas... we aren't quite as rude and obnoxious as NY or Philly fans, but we can be pretty creative when we need to...just look at last night's game - we had Vanna White throw out the ceremonial first pitch!!! Bet you wish you'dve been there!!!

Vanna White? THE Vanna White? She still alive? Sheeee-it, she's older than I am. Hell, isn't Cher her little sister?

Maybe you can get Michael Jackson to throw out the first pitch next? Underhand.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Vanna White? THE Vanna White? She still alive? Sheeee-it, she's older than I am. Hell, isn't Cher her little sister?

Maybe you can get Michael Jackson to throw out the first pitch next? Underhand.

Older than you? HA! Here's what's older than you:

[Jurassic Referee]

"I am deeply hurt by that" he says, as a tear slowly trickles from his eye.

[rockyroad]

Look at that...the Yankees fans are turning on each other at the mere thought of having to face the juggernaut that is the Mariners...and just to be clear here, Vanna's pitch from 15 feet away went about 13.5 feet, and Melvin was heard to say "Hey Franklin and Pineiro, she throws like you!!!"