Substitution mess/help!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
B1 commits his 5th foul. B6 & B7 are properly reported to enter the game for B2 & B3. I report the foul. Official scorer tells me that B1 has committed his 5th foul. B6 & B7 get up to enter the game. They start to walk onto the floor. I stop them. I tell them to remain at the table.

Why? Why did you tell them to remain at the table? There's no reason that B6 & B7 can't enter the game. That was the purpose of the rule change. You should beckon the subs into the game. They do not have to wait until the coach replaces the disqualified player with a sub. In fact, any player from either team should be allowed into the game up until the sub for the disqualified player is beckoned.

I have to agree with Bob. You created some problems for yourself that could have been avoided. But, we all live and learn.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


Why? Why did you tell them to remain at the table? There's no reason that B6 & B7 can't enter the game. That was the purpose of the rule change. You should beckon the subs into the game. They do not have to wait until the coach replaces the disqualified player with a sub. In fact, any player from either team should be allowed into the game up until the sub for the disqualified player is beckoned.

I have to agree with Bob. You created some problems for yourself that could have been avoided. But, we all live and learn.

I love it how everyone has to get their own barb in before we let the issue rest...

BktBallRef, I have already admitted "bone-headedness"...you don't have to point out more! My intent was to make it easier on everyone to enter. I wanted to make sure we didn't end up with 6 on the floor...which is what actually happened! Why didn't I beckon them in? Because I was busy telling the coach that B1 had committed his 5th foul, he needed a replacement for him, and telling the time keeper that I needed a 30-second count started. That's why!

Next time, should I go ahead and beckon B6 & B7 onto the court and then take care of fouled out B1, coach, and timer? Then we'll have people running all over the place not knowing who's coming in for who since player B1 just fouled out. What I believe is likely in that scenario is that B1, B2, and B3 will all go to the bench when, in fact, only B2 or B3 should go to the bench. If B2 & B3 do return to the bench, in theory, they should not be allowed to return to the game until after the first dead ball after the clock starts or if team B takes a TO (and I'm sure that will make the coach real happy.) Agree? I think by making them stay, if I'd have understood the rule correctly and fully, I believe I would (or could) have saved everyone a headache.

I do NOT believe my error was in keeping B6 & B7 at the table. Rather, I believe my error was NOT knowing that a previously reported player, reporting in for a particular player on the court, could be changed by the coach whenever said coach wanted BEFORE I beckoned the player onto the court. If coach B would have told me, "I will have B6 replace B1 instead of having B6 replace B2. Plus, I still want B7 to replace B3 while I now leave B2 in the game (or vice versa)." Everything would have come out how I had intended in the beginning of the whole mess.

I clearly know what my mistake was, and I'll NEVER commit it again!

Thanks everyone!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 22nd, 2000 at 01:25 AM]

[JRutledge]

I would have thought that was you, getting upset over something silly. Keep up the good work IndyRef, it will be alright!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref


I love it how everyone has to get their own barb in before we let the issue rest...

BktBallRef, I have already admitted "bone-headedness"...you don't have to point out more! My intent was to make it easier on everyone to enter. I wanted to make sure we didn't end up with 6 on the floor...which is what actually happened! Why didn't I beckon them in? Because I was busy telling the coach that B1 had committed his 5th foul, he needed a replacement for him, and telling the time keeper that I needed a 30-second count started. That's why!

[/b]No barb intended and I wasn't attempting to point out any shortcomings. I didn't read in your post that you understood that B6 and B7 should have been allowed to enter earlier than you allowed. I was only pointing out that you shouldn't make subs wait until the disqualified player is replaced. It's easy to make sure you don't end up with 6 on the floor. When the last sub enters, count the players for each team and don't start play until you have just 10.

Next time, should I go ahead and beckon B6 & B7 onto the court and then take care of fouled out B1, coach, and timer?[b/]

No. You should:
1- Report the foul.
2- Inform the Coach of the 5th foul.
3- Ask the timer for 30 seconds.
4- Inform the player of the 5th foul.
5- Beckon any subs that are wating to come into the game. 6- Beckon any other subs that report prior to the required sub being beckoned.
7- make sure you have 5 on each side.

Then we'll have people running all over the place not knowing who's coming in for who since player B1 just fouled out. What I believe is likely in that scenario is that B1, B2, and B3 will all go to the bench when, in fact, only B2 or B3 should go to the bench. If B2 & B3 do return to the bench, in theory, they should not be allowed to return to the game until after the first dead ball after the clock starts or if team B takes a TO (and I'm sure that will make the coach real happy.) Agree?

[/b]No, I'm sorry, but I don't. You're making this way more difficult than it is. When a B sub enters the floor and a B player doesn't leave, then the replaced player has been replaced. As for B2 & B3, there's no theory to it. If B2 & B3 are substituted for, they can't return until the clock has run.

I do NOT believe my error was in keeping B6 & B7 at the table. Rather, I believe my error was NOT knowing that a previously reported player, reporting in for a particular player on the court, could be changed by the coach whenever said coach wanted BEFORE I beckoned the player onto the court. If coach B would have told me, "I will have B6 replace B1 instead of having B6 replace B2. Plus, I still want B7 to replace B3 while I now leave B2 in the game (or vice versa)." Everything would have come out how I had intended in the beginning of the whole mess.

[/B]Please understand that I'm not picking a fight with you. But your mistake was not allowing B6 & B7 into the game. Think about it. Allow the 2 subs to enter the game. B1, who fouled out, and B2 leave the floor. Now we're ready to play. I understand that you didn't understand the previously reported player sitch. But all of the conversation that you want to have with the coach is unnecessary. Sooner or later a conversation with a coach, after you've called foul #5, will get you and the coach is hot water. He doesn't need to tell you anything. He just needs 5 legal players on the floor before his 30 seconds are up.

Again, I'm just trying to explain how it could have been handled and help avoid a problem the next time.

Have a great holiday weekend IndyRef.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 22nd, 2000 at 09:25 AM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Section 3 Substitution (Verbatim the rule book)
Art. 1...a substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorers, giving his/her number AND the number of the player who is being replaced.

In my four years of clock and book, in hundreds of games, even when the sub tells us who (s)he is reporting for, we ignore it. There is no place in the book to record this, and so we don't. The rules say we only keep track of who enters the game, not for whom.

This implies that the reporting player MUST substitute for the player that he/she says he/she is replacing. Maybe I'm overanalyzing the book? Is B6, as you say, REQUIRED to report for B2, or can coach B change his mind after the fact? I can't find a reference in the rule book or case book!
[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 11:04 AM]

I think you're overanalyzing, IMHO. For the casebook (slightly different play), look at 3.3.1C (pg 15).

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

No. You should:
1- Report the foul.
2- Inform the Coach of the 5th foul.
3- Ask the timer for 30 seconds.
4- Inform the player of the 5th foul.
5- Beckon any subs that are wating to come into the game. 6- Beckon any other subs that report prior to the required sub being beckoned.
7- make sure you have 5 on each side.

I think this is one of those areas where a good pre-game discussion with your table can work wonders. If your scorer and timer know what they are doing with the horn, illegal/messy substitution can be cut greatly.

As I mentioned to the refs after last night's Varsity game, I'm going to start charging players $1 for each time they:
(a) Think my horn lets them into the game.
(b) Think they need my horn to get into the game. (i.e. official beckoning with huge arm motions, and the idiotic player looks at me and says "Horn?")
I'll be rich in no time!

[Indy_Ref]

[i]Originally posted by BktBallRef
Originally posted by Indy_Ref

I do NOT believe my error was in keeping B6 & B7 at the table. Rather, I believe my error was NOT knowing that a previously reported player, reporting in for a particular player on the court, could be changed by the coach whenever said coach wanted BEFORE I beckoned the player onto the court. If coach B would have told me, "I will have B6 replace B1 instead of having B6 replace B2. Plus, I still want B7 to replace B3 while I now leave B2 in the game (or vice versa)." Everything would have come out how I had intended in the beginning of the whole mess.

Please understand that I'm not picking a fight with you. But your mistake was not allowing B6 & B7 into the game. Think about it. Allow the 2 subs to enter the game. B1, who fouled out, and B2 leave the floor. Now we're ready to play. I understand that you didn't understand the previously reported player sitch. But all of the conversation that you want to have with the coach is unnecessary. Sooner or later a conversation with a coach, after you've called foul #5, will get you and the coach is hot water. He doesn't need to tell you anything. He just needs 5 legal players on the floor before his 30 seconds are up.

If I would have allowed B6 & B7 into the game before the coach replaced B1, then AS I ALREADY STATED, B2 & B3 would have returned to the bench. Coach B, after finding out that B1 had committed his 5th foul, wanted B2 to stay in the game! (i.e. subbing 2 for 2)

In your scenario, B2 would have been on the bench & not eligible to re-enter the game at that point. Therefore, coach B would have had to substitute 3 for 3.

Again, I know how I'll handle it next time...

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 27th, 2000 at 11:44 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Don't beckon the subs in until you have reported the 5th foul to the coach. Follow the procedure below and you'll be in great shape if it happens again.

1- Report the foul.
2- Inform the Coach of the 5th foul.
3- Ask the timer for 30 seconds.
4- Inform the player of the 5th foul.
5- Beckon any subs that are wating to come into the game.
6- Beckon any other subs that report prior to the required sub being beckoned.
7- Make sure you have 5 on each side.

Happy New Year to you and your family, Indy Ref.